My first strike at Pioneer and their "customer service" team.

To Whom It May Concern:

I am a registered Pioneer product user. I initially called in an issue with my Pioneer AVIC Z-1 when I originally purchased it back around October/November of 2006. I was given a case number for my original complaint. My complaint then was that my unit did not have my home address listed in the map database of the navigation system.

My house is 5 years old and I was surprised that it was not listed with the database version dated from 1984 – 2006. The map Tele Atlas date is 2006. My software version appears to be 01.0000.

When I called in to complain about this originally I was told that an update disk would be coming out in the spring of 2007 and that my name and address would be added to the list of recipients to receive this “free†update. I called again in the spring to inquire about this update and still no word on when it would be released. In a subsequent call I was told it would be coming out in the fall. As time went on I started having issues with my unit with the screen locking up rendering the unit useless. I finally was able to have the unit repaired with the Free Firmware Update for Pioneer AVIC-Z1 & AVIC-Z2 to Address Lock-up/Freezing Issue patch that was issued around September 14, 2007. However, I am still lost on why I have not gotten a response to the issue about having an old map database in my unit.

In total I have spent about $2,500.00 for my navigation/entertainment system including back up camera, remote control and mic for the voice activation features. Overall I like the product but I am very disappointed in the way the product was delivered and the customer service I have received to date in reference to my issue. The way I see the database/operating system issue is as if I had just bought a new PC last year and upon booting it up realizing it had Windows 95 as an operating system when everyone else around me has Windows Vista loaded on their new units.

To make matters worse the freezing issues was enough to make me want to return my unit for a refund. However, I patiently waited and was updated with a fix but I spent months of very unsatisfactory experiences with my unit not knowing when and if it was going to work properly and when it did boot up, when using my navigation system I had questionable results when relying on it to get me to my destination.

I see on your web site where I can order an upgrade disk CNDV-700HD Upgrade for Pioneer HDD Navigation System (AVIC-Z1) and get the latest Tele Atlas database. However, I have a real issue with having to pay for an upgrade when my unit should have never been equipped with an old database to begin with. Plus I was told by a customer service rep that I would be sent and update disk in the spring or fall.

Overall I like the Pioneer product; to me it’s a much better unit than I would have had if I had gotten the factory navigation with my vehicle. I’d like to continue to do business with Pioneer and would even like to add at least two other devices to interface with my unit but am now reluctant to do so based on my experience with the performance of the product and the customer service I have experienced.

I will be forwarding this message to your corporate office, the customer service team and filing a complaint with the better business bureau if my questions are not satisfactorily answered. In conclusion I’d like to know if indeed this “update†disk I was promised for the map database is available and if so I’d like to have it ASAP.

I will post their responses in this thread as I get them.

i know its probly not what you wan't to do

but its here

and it will only cost about $100 and 1 hour of ur time

http://www.avic411.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9446

Dear Mr. XXXX,

Thank you for contacting Pioneer Electronics.

It seems as though you are speaking on two different issues here.

The mapping UPGRADE is available for purchase from our parts department. An upgrade is will include new streets, freeways, or any other mapping information that Tele Atlas has gained. The costs of the discs are set forth by Tele Atlas for their licensing fees. Tele Atlas nor Pioneer claim to have covered the entire United States for navigation. There may be some locations that are not available.

An UPDATE is created only when necessary to change an operation of the unit. Updates do not change map data. The only firmware updates that are available for the AVIC-Z1 at this time are for the freezing issue and another for echo's present while using bluetooth.

Thank You,

Teresa

Customer Service Representative

Teresa,

I find this all very unacceptable and have made it known on more than one occasion that I am disappointed in having a unit in my vehicle that is unpredictable about street addresses in my area, my home address not in the database and some streets do not have the correct address. I'm very disappointed in being led to believe that I would be sent an update disk for mapping data then to find out that is not the case. Had I known that originally I would have returned the unit and went with another product from a company that the manufacturer would stand behind and support and one that had up to date mapping information.

Further I feel like Pioneer is misleading the public in light of the recent fiasco with these expensive units freezing up due to hot weather and having to send out a patch to hundreds of people. As a computer software analyst for the life of me I cannot fathom how updating the software can affect how a unit responds in high temperatures. I personally think Pioneer should recall the defective units and either replace or repair them.

I suppose now in order for me to get updated mapping information I have to purchase the product from Pioneer and still have no guarantee that is has accurate map information. What was the point in me being issued a case if the complaint was never followed up on and when I inquire I am mislead?

Dear Mr. XXXX,

Your case was created to inform the mapping company of information that was requested by a consumer to be added to the next mapping upgrade. You are welcome to call in and speak with our product support department to find out if the information you are concerned about has made it onto the newest upgrade.

As far as the problems with the unit freezing, we have addressed the issue with a software update. It is a conclusive fix created by our Service Engineers.

Thank You,

Teresa

Customer Service Representative

Teresa,

I have called in at least twice to your customer service departments and got the run around and no straight answers. The answers to my question change with everyone I talk to. I have no desire to talk with anyone in your product support team unless they are contacting me to explain why my unit was sold with an obsolete database to begin with.

Sure there is a fix for the unit freezing with your software update. I saw today where Pioneer put a disclaimer with that firmware update they are not responsible if anyone installs the fix and don’t achieve the desired results by following the instruction to download and install it as instructed. Funny that the consumer has to be responsible for addressing a defect in a product that should have been recalled when the issue was first noticed.

Yay Capitalism! Thats the benefit of having a free market where consumers can buy in an elastic market structure!

Meaning we don't have to put up with bullsh*T from firms that provide products/services at a mediocre level.

Fight on! Brother! Fight on!

update and upgrade are two different terms with two different meanings. whether or not you mixed up the two, or the rep on the phone mixed em up, common sense would tell you that for map database info YOU HAVE TO PAY. every other company requires those disks to be paid for. Surely you arent so demanding to expect pioneer let alone the company whom prepares the map info to know that someone finally built a house on the lot in which you live. As time goes by (5 years is a long time though) things will be inputted, submitted for input, and altered. So 5 years while it should be in the database by then, it wasnt. whatever.

Now, to slam them for creating a fix for something YOU DONT UNDERSTAND is plain silly. You didnt really just say "As a computer software analyst for the life of me I cannot fathom how updating the software can affect how a unit responds in high temperatures. " Oh because you dont understand it, it just couldnt be. dude, pioneer is much bigger then you, you .. your letter.. and everyone here would seriously be nothing to pioneer. Also, i find your comment of "but I spent months of very unsatisfactory experiences with my unit not knowing when and if it was going to work properly" ... werent you told when an update/upgrade was going to be? if not, then your first part of your letter doesnt make sense... its hard to follow with these inaccurate statements.

Furthermore, your analogy of windows 95 and vista, is well.... poor. If you bought the system, and it didnt work you had ample time to return it. If you felt embarassed that you bought that system cuz it had an old os (like your analogy) you shoulda returned it. Afterall, surely you checked YOUR HOME address rather quickly and noticed it wasnt there... didnt you? If not, well.. thats your fault not pioneers.

While what ive said might seem a little tough to swallow, I do agree that the system isnt the perfect system, there are some things to improve it, but generally its a good system. Receiving the software/firm update to fix a high heat issue with a hd is totally understandable and proper, hence how your pc works with its bios as well... often times giving new options as well. Maybe your squeaky wheel thats in you will cause you more headache then going about your day to remedy the situation.. be it to replace the unit with something else, or buy the disks you want after checking if known points are included or not, or just not turning it on again. I think you make your problems worst with your way of handling it.

anyways, good luck with that

Progress is being made not sure how they plan to resolve it but I am being heard.

Case Number: XXXXXX

Dear Mr. XXXX:

Thank you for contacting Pioneer Customer Service. We are sorry to hear of the problem you describe.

In response to your request, case number XXXXX8 has been created and assigned to Customer Service Representative MXXXXi for follow-up. The representative will be in contact with you shortly regarding the resolution of your case.

We welcome the opportunity to assist you in this situation. If you have any questions, please reply via e-mail, or call us at (800) 421-1404, Monday through Friday, between the hours of 6:00 AM and 4:30 PM Pacific time.

Thank you for you input. I appreciate your candid response and you are right I may very well be over reacting. But for me a company like Pioneer needs to be held accountable for the level of service they provide, how they interact with the public and should stand behind their products and be held to a higher standard.

Yeah I could be wrong about the map database, but Pioneer needs to make sure their people are responding accordingly to the publics needs for information. I feel like I was mislead by them and I want to be heard and have it resolved in a fair and equitable way.

update and upgrade are two different terms with two different meanings. whether or not you mixed up the two, or the rep on the phone mixed em up, common sense would tell you that for map database info YOU HAVE TO PAY. every other company requires those disks to be paid for. Surely you arent so demanding to expect pioneer let alone the company whom prepares the map info to know that someone finally built a house on the lot in which you live. As time goes by (5 years is a long time though) things will be inputted, submitted for input, and altered. So 5 years while it should be in the database by then, it wasnt. whatever.

 

Now, to slam them for creating a fix for something YOU DONT UNDERSTAND is plain silly. You didnt really just say "As a computer software analyst for the life of me I cannot fathom how updating the software can affect how a unit responds in high temperatures. " Oh because you dont understand it, it just couldnt be. dude, pioneer is much bigger then you, you .. your letter.. and everyone here would seriously be nothing to pioneer. Also, i find your comment of "but I spent months of very unsatisfactory experiences with my unit not knowing when and if it was going to work properly" ... werent you told when an update/upgrade was going to be? if not, then your first part of your letter doesnt make sense... its hard to follow with these inaccurate statements.

 

Furthermore, your analogy of windows 95 and vista, is well.... poor. If you bought the system, and it didnt work you had ample time to return it. If you felt embarassed that you bought that system cuz it had an old os (like your analogy) you shoulda returned it. Afterall, surely you checked YOUR HOME address rather quickly and noticed it wasnt there... didnt you? If not, well.. thats your fault not pioneers.

 

While what ive said might seem a little tough to swallow, I do agree that the system isnt the perfect system, there are some things to improve it, but generally its a good system. Receiving the software/firm update to fix a high heat issue with a hd is totally understandable and proper, hence how your pc works with its bios as well... often times giving new options as well. Maybe your squeaky wheel thats in you will cause you more headache then going about your day to remedy the situation.. be it to replace the unit with something else, or buy the disks you want after checking if known points are included or not, or just not turning it on again. I think you make your problems worst with your way of handling it.

 

anyways, good luck with that

SO THE ONLY PROBLEM YOUVE EXPIRIENCED WITH THE Z1 IS THAT SOME ADDRESSES ARENT IN THE DATABASE?

thats y i let all my customers search the z1 demo unit i have before closing the sale.

i believe that it is impossible for these units to know everything and we as customers (even if we paid full 2500 rip for it) should know what to expect form our equipment. if you bought the z1 solely for navi then im sorry thats not its best trick.

i hope pioneer feels bad enuff for you to send u update discs for free but i doubt that will hapn.

good luck

update is free, upgrade isnt? difference?

When my wife and I got our 06 Subaru legacy we sprung for the factory Navigation system. We were told that we would get updated maps for the next few years for free. Basically Subaru was going to pay Kenwood for the maps. I figured this was an incentive to help sell the units (we were the fist people to buy a factory navigation system from that dealer). Many car companies are doing things like this. Like Acura paying for a few years of xm radio and xm traffic when you get the high end system. Usually when you get a navigation system you are also getting the high model. So the car company is ok with giving out few hundred for updates when you are upgrading to a higher level spending a few thousand. Now where is Pioneer going to get money from giving out free updated maps?

Now also I found out later that the car dealer lied (what a surprise) and we have to pay for the update software for our Legacy’s navigation system. Looking back in the paperwork updated maps are not mentioned. We did not check this so we are out, our bad. Like if the dealer said oil changes are free for the next year YOU need to double check it is in the paperwork.

Does the AVIC’s warranty/specifications paperwork or the list of features say it includes free updated maps? If they were free trust me it would be listed in both it would be made a selling point. This is because Pioneer is either cutting profit on the system or raising the price of it. Updating navigation software / map data is not cheap or easy.

It is as if you bought Windows 95 and are complaining you are not getting a free upgrade to Windows 98. Even though you are getting free patches and security updates.

It is as if you bought Windows 95 and are complaining you are not getting a free upgrade to Windows 98. Even though you are getting free patches and security updates.

This statements says it all. Well done spook.