JohnK

Installed the PAC TR-4 in the trunk ... didn't work -- one second delay is not enough.

I know now that the PAC TR-7 is configurable for much longer delays, but now that I have the TR-4 in hand I figure I should try the approach suggested by CWolfey, which will definitely resolve the turnon pop.  And as long as the turnoff is immediate this will resolve my overall problem.

That idea makes sense ... however isn't the delay box supposed to have it's positive lead attached to solid 12v and not switched?

My PAC TR-4 should be arriving today so I can try the install this weekend.  I don't really want to pull the radio yet again, so I'm going to install it at the amp in the trunk and see how it does there. 

But if that doesn't solve the pop compeltely, I'll try your suggestion next.

Thanks.  John

Okay, I pulled the head unit today to check the voltage on that blue/white remote turnon wire.  First I disconnected the car's antenna amp to make sure it wasn't supplying residual voltage.

When I turn off the car's ignition, the remote turn-on wire remains at 12v for about two seconds.   It does not kill the voltage immediately, as the Pioneer Tech Support rep suggested should be the behavior.

I don't know if any of the other wires to the head unit are causing it to supply residual voltage.  I don't imagine this is configurable in the head unit.

If this is how the head unit is designed, this is a serious design flaw.  

For now I have to rewire the amp back to the car's switched 12v, and I'll add a delay box to eliminate the small pop during turnon.

Depth is likely going to be the deciding factor. I don't think the DIN spec includes depth, so it's up to the individual mfg as to how much space they allot.  Some stock radios may be very shallow (meaning their dash cavities may not be that deep), and I believe most nav units are in the 6-7" deep range.

One other consideration is fan placement on the head unit.  The depth of my stock radio and z130bt replacement were fairly close -- however the fan on the stock unit is recessed whereas the fan on the z130 sticks out.  That means in a tight install the first thing on the back of the radio to get blocked is the fan!  Not a great design.   Fortunately I have almost an inch of space to the padded rear cavity wall so I think I'm okay ... at least no thermal shutdowns yet ...!

Fyi, I sent an email to Pioneer tech support and received a response today:

=====

Thank you for contacting Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc.

1 The red wire is not the main power, it is used to power the unit off and on. The yellow wire is the main source of power.

2. It is normal for the blue/white wire to remain active until the vehicle is turned off. It should kill the voltage as soon as the radio is turned off.

Sincerely,

Rocky
Customer Service Representative

=====

So I would guess that the car's antenna amplifier, which is also connected to the accessory wire, has a capacitor in it which drains excess current after the radio cuts off, thereby leaving voltage in the accessory wire for a couple of seconds more.  The next time I pull the radio (seems like it's a becoming a monthly ritual now) I will test and swap wires, connecting antenna amp to switched 12v, and leaving the speaker amp as the sole device connected to the accessory wire.  We'll see if this clears it up.

Without a doubt B+ (the yellow wire) is the main current carrying wire, ... Acc/ignition is just a turn-on signal.

Please help me review this behavior in light of the issues I'm having with amp turnoff pop --

If the head unit uses the constant 12v as it's main power supply, then when you turn off the ignition in the car, the headunit should sense that a shutdown is in order and it should shut down gracefully, i.e. cut voltage to the accessory wire, wait a couple of seconds for accessories (especially speaker amps) to power down, then shut itself down.  I would also expect some sort of indication that the unit is shutting down, like the circular arrow progress indicator you see for 10-20 seconds upon startup.   I would also expect that the head unit would wait a couple of seconds to start the shutdown process to make sure the voltage interruption isn't you starting the car.

But instead, when I either turn off the car or start the car when the radio is already running under acc power, the head unit looks like it had the rug yanked out from under it ... screen black, no indication of anything still powered, and if starting the car, it reboots again from scratch after the car starts.

This also ties into my post in the troubleshooting forum, that after turning off the car I saw the amp stayed on for a couple more seconds before turning off with a loud "pop".  I've since moved the amp turnon to the 12v switched line (with a very small pop on startup now), but am wondering if the lingering 12v on the accessory wire was coming from voltage drain from the car's antenna amp, which is also connected to the same accessory wire.  The head unit wouldn't shut down instantly yet keep the accessory wire live for a couple seconds more, would it?   I mean, rule #1 in component configurations is "amp  = last on, first off".

Thanks.  John

** Update **

I did notice  that my USB drive power sensing (flashing amber) light stays flashing for a few seconds after I turn the radio off.  Since this is connected to the radio via the USB harness plug and not the remote accessory wire, I wonder if the head unit is actually leaving peripherals powered for a few seconds after it shuts off.   Again, this is not the behavior I would expect anyone to want.

** Update **

I received confirmation from Pioneer Tech Support of Pionara's statement of constant 12v (yellow) being the main current carrying wire.   The fact that the radio goes immediately blank when you cut power to the switched 12v is just the designed behavior of the radio ... it is not an indication that the switched 12v is supplying the power (although it sure leads you to believe that).

They also said that the accessory wire should cut voltage immediately when the radio is turned off.   The fact that mine retains voltage (thereby leaving the amp on for a couple of extra seconds, enough time to give a loud "pop") may be due to capacitance in the car's antenna amplifier, which I have also connected to the accessory wire.  I am going to try switching the antenna amp to the switched 12v instead, leaving only the speaker amp on the accessory wire, to see if it behaves as it should.

When I wired my Alpine amp remote turnon wire to the z130BT's accessory wire,  turnon was fine,  but when I turn off the radio the 12v on the accessory wire stays on for a couple of seconds after the radio is off, resulting in a "pop" in the amp once the accessory wire voltage drops.

Is this the behavior of the AVIC head unit accessory wires?   Since the head unit appears to be powered by the 12v switched, when I turn off the car it essentially kills the power to the radio.  Even though the radio has a 12v constant lead, it doesn't seem like the radio elegantly turns off accessories before shutting itself down.  For a high end head unit like this, I would think it would handle this properly.

If the AVIC head unit is supposed to kill the accessory wire voltage immediately, then is it possible that the car's antenna amplifier is hanging onto some voltage for a couple of seconds. which is keeping the amp on?

For now I have wired the amp turnon directly to the car's ignition turnon, which eliminated the turnoff pop but now has a slight (much lower volume) turnON pop because the amp is powering up before the head unit.  I think I can add a delay to the turnon wire ... but ultimately I would like to use the "proper" method of coordinating on/off between the head unit and the amp.

Are these AVIC head units supposed to elegantly power down the amp before turning themselves off when the 12v switched from the car is turned off?

Thanks.  John

I get a high pitched whine while I'm on the phone:

• z130bt,  LG ENV2 phone.  BT connects right up within 15-30 sec whenever I get in the car.
• It's pretty low level volume but it is still clearly audible, enough to be annoying.
• It changes pitch when someone is talking vs not talking.
• It is the same whether the car's engine is running or not.
• I've tried touching the mic cable to see if my body grounds anything ... no effect.

Any ideas?

Thanks.  John

Can someone also post a visual comparison of the old and new maps?

Thanks.

Just keep in mind that if you don't buy it from an authorized dealer you get no warranty.

You may not get a warranty from Pioneer ... but many mail order houses provide their own warranty for anywhere from 90 days to one year.

Okay, so we are clear that the Pioneer radios (or all radios?) use the constant (yellow) 12v as their main power source.

So the Alpine KPT-445/U needs 15A power, and the radio circuit has only 10A on many cars.  Has anyone hooked up the KPT-445/U (or any other low-power amp) to the car's switched circuit for the cig lighter, which is usually 15A?

Thanks.  John

I'm actually asking this question in part because I may be trying an install of the Alpine Power Pack on my son's Honda Accord (Pioneer DEH6400).  The install instructions for this unit suggest you run the wire directly to the battery, or tap into a constant 12v power source that has 15A capacity.  But the Honda has only 10A constant, but 15A switched (due to the needs of the cig lighter).  So unless I can up the amperage on the radio fuse to 15A, then my only option is to wire the amp directly to the battery (one of their choices).   Or ... can I run the amp off the 15A switched line?

So this all brought about the question of which wire the radio is drawing it's power from.

So we all know that Yellow is constant 12v and red is switched 12v.

Which one is actually expected to supply power to the unit for the internal speaker amp?

• I have seen some radios claim that the primary power comes from the constant 12v, and the switched 12v is only used as a signal wire to tell the radio to turn on.   Much as the 12v illumination wire would signal dimming of the display.

• I have also seen some radios that claim that the constant 12v source is used for memory backup only, and the switched 12v carries the power to operate the radio.

I have installed the z130bt in my 2005 Mercedes C230 (W203 chassis).   This car has no switched 12v wire in the harness, forcing me to tap into the cigarette lighter for that switched power source.  The car uses a CAN-BUS digital communication protocol, which transmits, among other things, ignition status of the car.  So I have to believe that the car's stock radio expects it's power to come from the constant 12v source, and ignition status comes in through the digital bus.    The constant 12v source is rated 10A on this car.

Since the Avic needs a hardwire switched 12v, the common way to hook these up in the mercedes is to tap into the cigarette lighter power.  The cig lighter fuse is rated 15A, and since I don't use it as a lighter I have the full 15A available to power the radio if needed.

My son's Honda Accord has both constant and switched 12v in the car's harness,  but the fuse ratings are 10A for constant 12v and 15A for the switched 12v.   I believe the switched wire is rated higher because it is shared with the cig lighter ... but the side effect of that is that regardlesss of which wire an aftermarket radio expects to supply power, in the Honda it will get 10A minumum either way.

So, my question is, which wire is expected to power the Pioneer head units, and specifically their internal amps?   And, what is the required fuse rating?   Is it only 10A, which seems to be what cars have listed for their radio fuses?

Thanks.  John

On the Z130 there is an additional wire -- from the RCA harness -- that must be grounded as well.  Since there is no wire in that location in the harness as it comes from the factory, it may be a hidden feature provided on the radio to prevent the random consumer from bypassing their parking brake safety feature (until they go to the forums, of course).  I'm guessing that the radio is deducing from the GPS that the car is moving, and this extra wire must override that piece of information. 

All of these signals (ignition, park status, drive direction, speed, nighttime illumination, button presses, etc) can all be monitored through the CAN-BUS.  Can-Bus devices like Metra (maybe not the Axxess, but others)  can pick up these signals and transmit them to the radio either through hard wires (as in my z130bt) or subsequent CAN-BUS wiring.  My stock radio had a direct CAN-BUS connection to the harness.  

The hard wire signals are described somewhere.  I thought for ignitionit was a 12v (on) or 0v (off), illumination was 12v(night) or 0v(day), for parking brake it was either grounded (park) or not grounded (not in park).  Speed is some sort of pulse.

Since the CAN-BUS interfaces uses a mini-jack to talk to the radio, I figured that signalling was different than CAN-BUS protocol.  Has Pioneer changed that with the z150?

It sounds annoying, but here's a quick one (attached).

If you have any old Beatles albums they have a lot of separate channel recording on their songs.

Sounds like your wires are crossed.  If you have one of those specialty"systems, they have "between channel" speakers. If the auto store wired those speakers to the L and R leads from your head unit, they may effectively tie your L and R channels together.  I would suggest you bring it back and have them take another look.  They may have to disconnect the between speakers from your system -- or wire it to one or the other L or R, but not both.

stereoLR.mp3

I'm no expert on troubleshooting these units ... but if the car battery was changed, is it possible that when connecting the new battery a fuse was blown on either the constant or switch 12v lines?

I recently installed my z130BT and have no issues with channel separation.   Do you have an audio clip that clearly plays different material on each channel?  If not, let me know and I can send you some sample MP3 clips.

Other than content, is there a big visual difference between the old and new maps?   I've looked around for photos but they are hard to find -- especially ones showing comparable routes.

Thanks.  John

For everyone who is using the internal amp on their head unit, if you wouldn't mind running the following test I am curious to hear what you come up with.

I've attached a series of WAV files that each generate fifteen seconds of white noise at various low sound levels.  I took a WAV file of white noise generated at 0db and dropped it successive amounts of volume.  So "white-60db" means -60db, "white-80db" means -80db, etc. 

The goal is to determine which of these audio clips you can hear above your radio's noise floor, and which ones you can't.

• Copy all of the attached files onto a USB, SD.

• Plug the card into your radio, open up the file with the highest sound level (e.g. white-60db), and put it on pause.

• Flatten the EQ.

• Raise the volume on your radio until you can hear a noise floor (hiss) coming from the speakers.  On my stereo I can start hearing it in the 20-30 range.

• Then repeatedly play and pause the audio clip, to see if you can hear the audio file material above the amp noise.  If you hear the white noise on the audio clip, then your radio amp noise floor is below that level.

• Progressively move to the lower volume audio clips, doing the play/pause toggle each time, until you find a clip that you cannot hear above the noise floor of your radio.

• Please let us know which is the lowest level file you can hear.   (For my test this morning I could barely hear -80db ... haven't checked -90db or -100db yet as I just made those)

• Next, to hear the effect of the EQ, try bumping up the top 2 bands of the EQ by two notches each.  For me this produced a noticable increase in noise floor of my radio.  I imagine speaker differences will have an effect here as well.

You can also try this with a CD ... theoretically there should be no difference if the noise you hear is coming from the amp.  It would also be interesting to hear how much better the pre-outs with an external amp do with this test.

Thanks.  John

white-60db.wav

white-70db.wav

white-80db.wav

white-90db.wav

white-100db.wav

(moved to new thread)

I have a z130bt with firmware app v3.001 and specifically am not having issues with my stock mic.  My mic is mounted on the rear view mirror mount up at the top of the windshield, on the left side of the mount pointing towards me.  So far everyone I've spoken to on the phone says I sound fine.

Where is your mic mounted that is giving you problems? 

Do you have the rear and/or sides of the mic enclosed?  If so, as in cupping your hands around the sides of a mic, it will really screw up the sound -- so make sure the mic is on a flat open surface before you assume it's bad.

If you still think it is bad and want to try out some replacements, if you cannot easily get to the back of the radio to plug/unplug the mic cord, I suggest buying a short extension cable for the mic to allow you to plug in new mics somewhere outside of the radio cavity.  Then try different mics and different mic locations, leaving the cord loose for now until you find an arrangement that works best for your car.

As for mics to try, if you want to go higher end I suggest you consider the Countryman B3 omni, for a but under $200 new and probably < $100 used.  I do a lot of sound for theater and schools and this is one of the body mics of choice due to level and natural voice response, as well as it's small capsule size.  It is by no means the top end (you can spend over $500 on DPA) but it is the best "bargain" mic.

Will the bluetooth problems not be resolved by a software upgrade?

If the z110 was so problematic, how about the z130?  

I just purchased a refurb z130 over the z140 because (a) it was cheaper, and ( it has voice control features that were taken away in the z140 (and I assume z150 as well).  Otherwise it's supposedly the same unit.  I also believe I am eligible to upgrade my z130 from 3.001 to 4.010, but if I were to lose the voice control features then I won't do it. 

So I am content with the z130 until Pioneer produces a new model that has full CAN-Bus handling built in and/or removes the USB/SD 2500 file limit.

Does anyone know if the CAN-01.2 interface is sold anywhere nowadays?

Here's a link with the wiring diagram:  http://www.connects2.co.uk/Instructions/CAN-01.2.pdf

But otherwise I cannot find anyone who sells it. I've tried Metra Online, www.installer.com, and sonicelectronix.com ... no luck.

Thanks.  John

Turning the sub output on should send signal to the sub pre-outs.  It will also set up a low pass filter on the sub output, and an (adjustable) high pass filter on the front/rear speaker outputs.  This allows the radio to manage the crossover between main speakers and the sub.  So yes if you leave it on there is a change you will filter out some of the low frequencies from the main speaker outputs (although that can usually be adjusted). 

If you're not planning to use the sub pre-outs, then to play it safe turn off the sub on the head unit.