Question for anyone with a remote start. I have a remote start on my Toyota Tundra. When I hit the remote start, it basically clicks the ignition (ACC) on for about 4 seconds then turns the truck on. For some reason when this happens about every 4 or 5 times i use the remote start it hangs my AVIC F700BT to where the touch screen does not work. I either have to hit the reset button (clearing all my settings) or turn the truck of and back on.

Is there a boot wait option or a fix. Anyone else having this issue?

if its a D.E.I. R/S (viper, hornet, sidewinder...) and has keyless entry , you could hook a relay up to the radios ACC circuit and use the "ground when armed" wire to keep the AVIC from turning on until you unlock the doors. i have a viper R/S that i use all the time and have never had a problem with the AVIC from using it, im sure that the problem is from the AVIC lossing power part way through a boot up. another option would to get some sort of capacitor or small 12v battery and a diod to keep the ACC wire powered for the second or two that the motor is cranking that way the boot cycle would not be interupted

Everything that 1loudls says is accurate... I have a Viper Remotestart as well and I actually use it everytime I get into my car to get the AVIC booting up so I get in and the music is playing Your other option is that since this is an occasional thing you could also use a standard Bosch SPDT relay and a normally open momentary switch to interrupt the acc wire on the AVIC to force it to reboot without having to loose all of your settings

The relay will have 5 terminals on it they will be labeled as 30, 85, 86, 87, 87a

cut the ACC wire behind the radio don't cut it too short cause you will need both sides of the wire!

30 to the radio side of the ACC wire

87a and 86 to the vehicle side of the ACC wire

87 terminate... connect to nothing but insulate it

85 to one side of the normally open momentary switch

Chassis ground to the other side of the switch

Mount the switch in a descrete location

Whenever you hit the switch it will disconnect the power on the ACC wire and force the screen to shut off... as soon as you release the switch everything will go back to normal.

As I am understanding this: the ACC going hot for a few seconds then shuts off, and then although not specifically stated, then the Switched Ignition wire goes hot, along with the START wire. In this case, I would install a delay relay on the AVIC power wire. This relay will cost about $60 and will stop the AVIC from getting pulsed power during the remote start process. The ON delay being set long enough to compensate for the Remote Start cycle, maybe 10 seconds.

Using a capacitor to hold enough energy to keep the AVIC powered during the OFF pulses, would have to be large physically, we are talking in the 1+ farad region, and you have to size it properly, depending on the pulse width and interval of the ACC pulse. A battery at the AVIC won't work because it will hold the AVIC powered after the key is switched off...slowly discharging...and then suppling the AVIC with under voltage which could be harmful to the NAVI electronics.

a small battery or capacitor would be powering the ACC wire or at least a relay controlling the ACC wire, the AVIC pulls all of the power it uses for operation from the constant wire and only enough power from the ACC wire to tell the unit when to turn on. Power on the ACC wire only drops off for as long as the engine cranks, which on most cars or at least good running cars is less than a second (0.8 seconds on mine), and at the most a second and a half to two seconds tops, any more than that and the car needs some work, how big of capacitor would you need to provide a 1/4 of an amp for 1 second?

however i do agree with you that a "pulse timer" like a D.E.I. 528T would work great to keep the device powered durring the "crank" cycle and would be very easy to wire in

a small battery or capacitor would be powering the ACC wire or at least a relay controlling the ACC wire, the AVIC pulls all of the power it uses for operation from the constant wire and only enough power from the ACC wire to tell the unit when to turn on. Power on the ACC wire only drops off for as long as the engine cranks, which on most cars or at least good running cars is less than a second (0.8 seconds on mine), and at the most a second and a half to two seconds tops, any more than that and the car needs some work, how big of capacitor would you need to provide a 1/4 of an amp for 1 second?

 

however i do agree with you that a "pulse timer" like a D.E.I. 528T would work great to keep the device powered durring the "crank" cycle and would be very easy to wire in

Using a battery as a remedy would put the battery in deep discharge when the ignition is off, not so good for the battery. It will stress the battery and it will fail in a very short timel, unless you wire in a low voltage protection circuit at an additional cost. But there is another problem with using a battery or cap......

How long the engine cranks can be a weather variable too, especially if its diesel, kept out in the cold, and yes maybe other mechnical problems with the engine. So the 1 second might turn into 4 or 5 secs of cranking. I didn't test this, but i'm guessing the boot up takes more than 250 milliamps to power up, but regardless...if you get a cap that can sustain a few seconds of no power input to the HU, then you will have a low voltage problem when the vehicle is shut off and the cap drains. Powering the HU with less than say 10v could eventually cause failure of the HU, you want a clean power shut off for the HU, something a cap or battery can't provide as they discharge, this is the equivelent of causing a "brownout condition" and brownouts can be devastating to electronics. IMO the most reliable, cost effective and best solution is the delay relay, and the 528T is available for $20 on Ebay.

I'm curious, if you were to just start your car normally, would your AVIC do the same thing about every 4 or 5 times, or maybe every 8 to 10 since it sounds like that's how many times it's actually starting up in your case? I have a problem with mine since updating to the new firmware where every now and then, the screen just doesn't come up. It shows the normal "Pioneer" boot screen, but the screen won't be active once it gets loaded up. I think I heard of others having the same problem, but not sure. If that's the case, your problem isn't really your remote start, but rather your AVIC. Thanks.

a small battery or capacitor would be powering the ACC wire or at least a relay controlling the ACC wire...

fine dont use a battery, but the cap does work, and we're not talking about a diesel we're talking about a toyota pickup

as the voltage from the cap drops below the threshold of what is needed to keep the relay energized, the relay would just shut off, giving you the "clean power shut off for the HU" you want to see and therefore there would be no brown out situation

Yikes installing the battery is a bit of over kill i think. To answer dugthug normal starts (nonremote starts) work fine everytime. I was hoping there was a hack that would just pause the boot up on the radio by about 5 seconds. But I will be researching the battery option.

Also is there a way to reboot it without hitting the reset?

a small battery or capacitor would be powering the ACC wire or at least a relay controlling the ACC wire...

 

fine dont use a battery, but the cap does work, and we're not talking about a diesel we're talking about a toyota pickup

 

as the voltage from the cap drops below the threshold of what is needed to keep the relay energized, the relay would just shut off, giving you the "clean power shut off for the HU" you want to see and therefore there would be no brown out situation

I must have overlooked that, I didn't see him specify what engine he had..however maybe someone reading this thread has a diesel...but you don't need a diesel necessarily to have a weather related cold start to require more cranking time, perhaps you got a tank of bad gas, maybe the car battery is old and not holding its cranking amps....so again the crank time could increase back to the 4 or 5 or more seconds with varying conditions.

The solution, whatever it may be, should take all possibilies into consideration to be "bullet proof". You suggested adding a general relay to the cap to prevent brownout, but relays... take your average 12 volt relay may pickup(make contact) at 10 volts...however the holding voltage/dropout voltage could be less and likely is less...several volts below pickup voltage, say 6 volts...I have seen 12v relays hold or vibrate at 5 volts...supplying your HU with 5-6 volts is not a good idea(brownout!)...Unless the person has the know how and equipment to test the relay for pickup voltage and dropout voltage they won't know how it will react in the cap/relay circuit. And then you have the size issue...a cap in the farad region will be huge...and expensive far more than a "528T delay relay"...then at your suggestion, one has to add a regular relay to it anyway, at more cost. Also you have something called inductive kick(voltage spike cause by the collapse of a coil voltage), which occurs with coils(the relay coil in this case) and caps, the design has to compenstate for that too.

So IMO the 528T is the only viable solution, it will cover any engine, even ones that require more crank time due to weather, inherent design, engine age, poor maintenence, etc, and work flawlessly time after time with no worries!, as long as the guy installing it knows what he is doing

Yikes installing the battery is a bit of over kill i think. To answer dugthug normal starts (nonremote starts) work fine everytime. I was hoping there was a hack that would just pause the boot up on the radio by about 5 seconds. But I will be researching the battery option.

 

Also is there a way to reboot it without hitting the reset?

You need a momentary SPDT switch(a SPST momentary will not work!) wired to the power line to force a reboot.

I have my doubts if a software hack would get into the MPU(microprocessor) early enough to properly delay boot up, maybe it could be done in firmware though.

I see a lot of discussion back and forth here about keeping (or not) the acc line powered. I don't think that this is the problem here. I think that the autostart is keeping the acc line on while the starter is engaged. Unfortunately, the car electrical voltage can drop below 10.5 V while the engine is cranking. This will cause the AVIC to crash if it is booting at the time.

I solved it with a 12V aux battery for the AVIC. It is important to know that this aux battery must power both the ACC lead and the constant power lead. If you just do the ACC lead you won't accomplish anything. As for the deep discharge comment, that is wrong. I have the battery wired through a diode such that it is always charged by the car (main battery or alternator). The AVIC runs off of the aux battery only for the seconds that it takes to crank the car each time, then it is recharged.

powering the ACC with a relay will also be a problem if you don't isolate it from the rest of the car. If you provide ACC power(remember that ACC is just a TRIGGER to turn on things) and it's not isolated you will provide power to everything else on that ACC circuit. Now with that being said, that may not be a problem in the OP vehicle becasue if my memory serves me correct that vehicle has 2 ACC wires one for the rest of the trucks accessories and one for the radio. Some cars, like mine have only 1 ACC wire. You would need 2 relays to properly isolate.

You would need 2 relays to properly isolate.

or just a relay & a diod, diods only allow power to flow in only one direction eliminating any back flow and isolating the circuit, also if you are using the constant power circuit as the source of power for the relay and ACC to trigger the relay and the acc wire on the AVIC is just hooked up to the relay and not multiple sources, 1 relay will be enough

You would need 2 relays to properly isolate.

 

or just a relay & a diod, diods only allow power to flow in only one direction eliminating any back flow and isolating the circuit, also if you are using the constant power circuit as the source of power for the relay and ACC to trigger the relay and the acc wire on the AVIC is just hooked up to the relay and not multiple sources, 1 relay will be enough

Back to the battery issues...when I said deep discharge will occur in a previous post, there was no mention of a diode at the time, without a diode "DEEP DISCHARGE WILL OCCUR". But depending on where you vehicle's voltage regulator's voltage cutoff is, keep in mind by adding a diode into the circuit to isolate the battery from the rest of the car, may not allow the GELCEL to charge properly. This is due to the forward voltage drop of the diode which is typically .7 volts. The vehicle voltage regulator is monitoring the voltage of the vehicle without the diode, and won't see the GELCEL's voltage isolated by the diode. A 12V GELCEL(lead acid without venting) requires 13.7 volts to charge it and 13.4v to float it. So add .7v to this and we have 14.1v to 14.4v. The vehicle voltage must achieve at minimum of 14.1 volts to float the GELCEL and 14.4v or better is ideal to charge it. And if your vehicle doesn't provide these minimums, the GELCEL will have a shortened life cycle. But if you know for sure the ACC is losing power during crank...which is what also happens to my vehicle put in the 528T delay relay because it won't matter what the cranking voltage is or how long it takes to crank because the AVIC will never be powered up before crank or during crank. The battery..is much bigger, too heavy even a small GELCEL weighs several pounds(its lead!) so it requires a strong mount, you must fuse it, too expensive, needs an additional relay anyway, requires periodic replacement and the diode charging issue. Why go through all this hassle with a battery/fuse/diode/relay combo??? I say again go with the 528T for the only viable, reliable, cheapest, easiest solution!!!

You would need 2 relays to properly isolate.

 

or just a relay & a diod, diods only allow power to flow in only one direction eliminating any back flow and isolating the circuit, also if you are using the constant power circuit as the source of power for the relay and ACC to trigger the relay and the acc wire on the AVIC is just hooked up to the relay and not multiple sources, 1 relay will be enough

 

Back to the battery issues...when I said deep discharge will occur in a previous post, there was no mention of a diode at the time, without a diode "DEEP DISCHARGE WILL OCCUR". But depending on where you vehicle's voltage regulator's voltage cutoff is, keep in mind by adding a diode into the circuit to isolate the battery from the rest of the car, may not allow the GELCEL to charge properly. This is due to the forward voltage drop of the diode which is typically .7 volts. The vehicle voltage regulator is monitoring the voltage of the vehicle without the diode, and won't see the GELCEL's voltage isolated by the diode. A 12V GELCEL(lead acid without venting) requires 13.7 volts to charge it and 13.4v to float it. So add .7v to this and we have 14.1v to 14.4v. The vehicle voltage must achieve at minimum of 14.1 volts to float the GELCEL and 14.4v or better is ideal to charge it. And if your vehicle doesn't provide these minimums, the GELCEL will have a shortened life cycle. But if you know for sure the ACC is losing power during crank...which is what also happens to my vehicle put in the 528T delay relay because it won't matter what the cranking voltage is or how long it takes to crank because the AVIC will never be powered up before crank or during crank. The battery..is much bigger, too heavy even a small GELCEL weighs several pounds(its lead!) so it requires a strong mount, you must fuse it, too expensive, needs an additional relay anyway, requires periodic replacement and the diode charging issue. Why go through all this hassle with a battery/fuse/diode/relay combo??? I say again go with the 528T for the only viable, reliable, cheapest, easiest solution!!!

That's funny, my solution (with a NiCd battery) has been viable, reliable, and very cheap for the last year or so. The added benefit of the slightly shorter boot time (since it continues to boot while the engine is starting) has been very minor. The added benefit that I can stop for gas, and then restart the car without ever having to reboot the AVIC has been major. I have also never experienced any of the flash corruption type issues that some in the forums have. I can't say that this is only because of the clean, no dropout power provided to the AVIC, but it can't be a bad thing.

People who say that their way is the only way for everyone are almost always wrong!

Its a nice idea to be able to pull into a gas station and shut off the car to fill up while the AVIC is still running. What timer are you using to control the shut off time since a fillup will last more than 5 minutes? Im guessing a fillup takes 8-10 minutes on average. We are not taking about having NASCAR fillup capability.

Also charging a NiCAD directly from the car's charging system is very risky. The vehicle charging system is designed for lead acid cells not NICADs. A charger specifically designed to operate off the vehicle voltage but have the correct charging characterics for NiCads should be used to prevent thermal runaway, hydrogen gas build up, cell destruction, fire, etc. Keeping this in mind, I dont see how a NiCAD charger, 12v NiCAD battery pack, and relay is cheaper than just a suggested 528T. A diode is no longer needed because the NICAD charger will isolate the battery pack but you still need a fuse.

So the NICad IS viable with the proper charger, but how is it cheaper? and it certainly isnt smaller, and if your goal is to power the AVIC for 10 minutes after the car is shut off you still need a delay relay too.

For that matter you could use a GELCEL to accomplish the same thing, eliminate the diode, eliminate the special charger[the vehicle charger is designed for GELCELs], and use a relay to isolate the GELCEL from the vehicle voltage while the vehicle is off, and a time delay relay on the output to cutoff the AVIC after 10 minutes or more. This would be cheaper that the NICAD solution, because no special charger is required, and a 4 amp GELCEL will be half the price of a 2 amp NICAD pack and about the same size.

The drawbacks for a battery backed AVIC are cost, and size[space and mounting locations available in the vehicle], BUT I DO ADMIT USING A BATTERY WITH THE PROPER DESIGN IS VIABLE.

My design would use an input relay instead of a diode. I don't have to fuel up very often[diesel] but there are days when I am in and out of the vehicle alot, so I would need 20-30 minutes of AVIC UP time. I would use a DPDT input relay to control the mute wire too, so the audio is silenced while the vehicle is OFF for that 20 minutes drawing even less power from the GELCEL, this would also charge the GELCEL properly when the vehicle is running. Maybe even use a 3PDT to dim the display too while the vehicle is off and AVIC is UP.....

1. The timer is built into the car. Radio power stays on until the driver's door is opened, or ten minutes after the key is turned off, whichever is first. However, when stopping for gas, I turn the key to the engine off, accessory on position, so none of that matters. Does you car not have this simple feature?

2. The NiCd is being correctly charged via a cheap circuit with a current limit resistor and a diode. It's not like I am an EE with many years of experience, oh wait, I am.

3. From your earlier post, I would like to correct your notion that gel-cell batteries don't vent. They do indeed vent when abnormal circumstances arise, such as a short circuit on the output or a overvoltage charge condition. Consider yourself warned.

The whole point here is that it is absurd for me to claim that my solution is the best one for everyone out there. It is also absurd for you to claim that yours is the best solution for everyone out there. Grow up. Present the options, leave out the "my way is the only way" crap, and let people choose.

Hi Joegr,

If your built in timer allows the radio to operate for 10 minutes after you turn your car off and you turn the ignition back to ACC position before you open the door within this interval, do you even need a battery backup to provide uninterrupted music/GPS during a fillup?

No, I do not have such a timer built into my vehicle, the only timer that exists is one that keeps the courtesy light on for 30 seconds after you open a passenger door, the driver door opening does not start courtesy the timer. None of the cars or trucks I drive have the simple timer feature you describe.

I like others, dont pay with a card(many diesel pumps dont even have a CC swiper on them) thus requiring one to leave the vehicle unattended, with the keys left in the ignition....another safety issue which could lead to your vehicle being stolen, leaving the keys in the ignition wouldn't work for me.

Sorry for using the words "My"...but I wanted to differentiate "My" idea for a design vs. others.

As I admitted the battery was viable but I somehow thought cost played a role in the design, and NOT whether there was any UP time after the vehicle was turned off, after rereading my post...it did sound a bit arrogant, that was not my intention. I was trying to present a design with the least overhead and provide the most safety to readers who are not engineers, a design flexible enough to work for most.

The original poster did say "the battery was overkill", but to others I realize function and not cost is a consideration.

Back to the GELCELs...I said "lead acids without the venting" which is still true, not sure why you are correcting me. The GELCEL battery is sealed non-vented battery as described by the manufacturer. As a matter of properly designed use, they do not vent, external venting is not required in the design, and the manufacturer does not provide a venting line attachment. The GELCEL is recombinant battery requiring positive internal pressure, and if it were to have venting, the battery perfomance and life would be greatly reduced. Its vent seal is only a safety feature to keep the battery from exploding if it is overcharged, or yes short circuited but, as I mentioned in a previous post, one needs to install a fuse on/next to the battery. But under nomal circumstances they do not vent as opposed to the lead acid car wet cell battery which does require venting to the outside of the vehicle at all times to allow hydrogen to escape during normal charging. Wet cell car batteries mounted within the interior of the vehicle all provide a vent line attached directly to the battery for external venting to the outside. Most car batteries also require an upright mounting position, while the GELCEL mounting position is not demanded by the manufacturer of the GELCEL(of course depending on terminal configuaration). Even NICADs will vent if they are improperly charged but like the GELCEL are not considered vented batteries.

"If your built in timer allows the radio to operate for 10 minutes after you turn your car off and you turn the ignition back to ACC position before you open the door within this interval, do you even need a battery backup to provide uninterrupted music during a fillup?"

The whole point is not to have music during the fill-up, it is to have working navigation when leaving the gas station, instead of two minutes later.

The battery is needed because the car's main battery's voltage goes below 10.5V while the starter is going. That's the whole problem that started this thread. If the AVIC is running or booting, and its power voltage goes below 10.5V, then it does a sudden, improper, shutdown and this can corrupt its FLASH memory. Normally, when you switch off the accessory lead, the radio still has full 12V power that it uses for part of a second to do a proper shutdown.

Actually, the simple feature I referred to is the accessory position on the ignition switch, not the timer. The switch has four positions. Off, accessories on, engine on, and start. Therefore, there is no need for the timer when switching from engine on to accessories on. I do pay at the pump, however I do sometimes also lock my car while the key or the engine is on. There is a keypad on the outside of the door that will unlock it if I enter the right code. That is a very handy feature.

Sorry about the gel-cell comment. It stems from a misunderstanding that some people that I know have with those sorts of batteries. My car has the battery in the trunk. The OEM battery has a vent tube connected to it that runs to the outside of the car. This reduces the possibility of an explosion in the trunk. Several people go out and replace the stock battery with one of the "sealed" gel-cell batteries, not realizing that the battery will still vent hydrogen should something go wrong.

Re cap:

Problem: AVIC crashes when power voltage falls too low when it is running or booting.

Solutions: (1) Wire the AVIC so that it is never powered while or just before starting the engine. Relays may be required. (2) Use a backup battery so that the AVIC always gets a full 12V, even when the engine is starting. Electronic components required.

Another easy solution to the gas station problem if you have a diesel is to leave your car running.

I am planning to install a Avic in a TDI and I would like to have it powering up while the glow plugs are warming up. The battery option listed here with a diod sounds interesting. I'm not an EE major so I might need a little more help to make it work. Joegr, thanks for the idea (I already had a simillar idea, and had already come to the conclusion that a separate battery rather than a capacitor is what I would need).

Joegr, can you give us a parts list and a simple diagram for how you created your solution? I would very much like to try to recreate it on my setup.

See attached

AVIC.pdf

Although its pretty safe filling up diesel with the engine running, out of habit I usually shut off the engine because i go inside to pay, and I can't lock it with the remote with it running....but im thinking more about the battery idea because whenever I go to a drive up window, I have to shut off my vehicle when i order because they cant hear me. Or if I want to pull over into a rest stop or talk on the phone...and switch to ACC the AVIC wont have to reboot. Glow plugs...mine take 30-40 secs in the winter...and sometimes i have to cycle them 2 or 3 times if its cold out like below 10F, the battery really makes sense in the winter..something I didnt think about yet.

Thanks for the awesome diagram. You rock!

Sorry to go a little off topic here. Looking at the diagram I am wondering if I could somehow use the door locks or dome light to power the acc line. Then my remote unlock would startup the AVIC. Then by the time I'm in the car belted in and ready to start I might already have navigation and music.

I'm just not sure how I would make it stay powered once the dome goes out from closing the door. Also how to make it actually turn off when I turn the key off.

I'm also not sure from the diagram how the 2x transistors work and why they are necessary. I wasn't expecting them (which led to me question above as I pondered what they were for)