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AutoCal -- Use a GOOD microphone

By tickerguy · Jun 09, 2014in NEX Series💬 58 posts👁️ 14,225 views
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Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 12:18 UTC#26

interesting argument but do you realize Pioneer may have calibrated their auto EQ software to match the curve of the CD-MC20?

 

​The reason you don't use "cardiod" is that it suffers from proximity effect. in a small space proximity effect becomes more pronounced.

Omnidirectional mics do not suffer from proximity effect. 

 

 

TRS = Balanced

TR = Unbalanced which is fine because its a interconnect length. 

 

I thought they might have, which is why I didn't know whether it would produce superior results or not.

 

But.... it turns out it does, which strongly implies they didn't.

Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 15:44 UTC#27

I thought they might have, which is why I didn't know whether it would produce superior results or not.

 

But.... it turns out it does, which strongly implies they didn't.

You actually contradicted your self with this reply, have you tried the MC20?

Thinking about makes me pissed that they couldnt include the mic that costs them around $4-5 so they try to get us to add one for $20+ thanks a lot Pionearly cheap

 

Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 17:46 UTC#28

You actually contradicted your self with this reply, have you tried the MC20?

Thinking about makes me pissed that they couldnt include the mic that costs them around $4-5 so they try to get us to add one for $20+ thanks a lot Pionearly cheap

 

No I didn't, and yes, I have an MC20.  The results it produces blow hairy chunks.  Save your $20 and either use a good mic you own or find someone who has one.

Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 17:51 UTC#29

Ok now I get your point, you seamed to be saying they didn't calibrate the firm ware for that mic but the results were good!  I used my Audio technica at822 msrp $499 with good results I still think so fine tweeking could be done on top of the auto eq but I dont think I can have a custom eq and the auto on at the same time.

Edited Jun 13, 2014 by Shackleton
Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 19:22 UTC#30

Actually you can.

 

With AutoEQ on the manual equalization is on top of the automatic profile..... which is quite nice!

 

From everything I can determine the head unit expects a flat microphone on the auto-cal input (which of course is a pipe dream, but it's far better for them to do that than to try to invert the response curve of a particular other mic!) -- so the better your mic is, the better your autocal results.

Edited Jun 13, 2014 by tickerguy
Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 20:26 UTC#31

Actually you can.

 

With AutoEQ on the manual equalization is on top of the automatic profile..... which is quite nice!

 

From everything I can determine the head unit expects a flat microphone on the auto-cal input (which of course is a pipe dream, but it's far better for them to do that than to try to invert the response curve of a particular other mic!) -- so the better your mic is, the better your autocal results.

I'm pretty confident in my ears. auto eq'ing doesn't really make sense to me personally. in music and audio post no one auto eq's anything in this application! i can see using the mic for time alignment but it would take me less time setting the eq on my own then to plug in a mic and press a button. there are a number of listening standards music and post studios use. pretty easy to do the same thing in a car. 

Edited Jun 13, 2014 by myke2241
Posted Jun 13, 2014 · 20:56 UTC#33

I'm pretty confident in my ears. auto eq'ing doesn't really make sense to me personally. in music and audio post no one auto eq's anything in this application! i can see using the mic for time alignment but it would take me less time setting the eq on my own then to plug in a mic and press a button. there are a number of listening standards music and post studios use. pretty easy to do the same thing in a car. 

Totally disagree, why do high end stereo's come with a mic and detail the set up procedures for adjusting to room acoustics ei my reciever the Pioneer Elite VSX52-TX?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/VSX-52TX

Posted Jun 14, 2014 · 00:25 UTC#34

I'm pretty confident in my ears. auto eq'ing doesn't really make sense to me personally. in music and audio post no one auto eq's anything in this application! i can see using the mic for time alignment but it would take me less time setting the eq on my own then to plug in a mic and press a button. there are a number of listening standards music and post studios use. pretty easy to do the same thing in a car. 

My ears are quite good as well but the auto-EQ can set the front and back EQ separately (or at least it appears to be able to, as it's measuring both separately!) and there is no way to do that manually!

 

Well, not unless you have a rather expensive outboard 4-channel (or 5-channel) EQ anyway.

 

That's one of the big challenges in a car -- the front and rear speakers are going to have materially-different frequency response curves due to the doors they're mounted in and other acoustic factors in the vehicle.

Posted Jun 14, 2014 · 00:42 UTC#35

My ears are quite good as well but the auto-EQ can set the front and back EQ separately (or at least it appears to be able to, as it's measuring both separately!) and there is no way to do that manually!

 

Well, not unless you have a rather expensive outboard 4-channel (or 5-channel) EQ anyway.

 

That's one of the big challenges in a car -- the front and rear speakers are going to have materially-different frequency response curves due to the doors they're mounted in and other acoustic factors in the vehicle.

Exactly the reason high end home audio has room acoustic setup called Mcacc by Pioneer   http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/98/tech/AVAmplifierReceiver/AF_MCACC.html

Edited Jun 14, 2014 by Shackleton
Posted Jun 14, 2014 · 03:31 UTC#37

I ordered a used one for 9.13, from amazon prime no delivery and 2 day shipping. I will check it out and see.

Posted Jun 14, 2014 · 03:55 UTC#38

Honestly with out knowing the specs on the pioneer mic its hard to tell but the bad spec shows the low end is rolled off for noise issues since its primary purpose is vocals.

Edited Jun 14, 2014 by Shackleton
Posted Jun 14, 2014 · 04:35 UTC#39

I would cancel it after reading the reviews

Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 07:36 UTC#40

The AT822 is a stereo XY which always uses a pair card or hyper card. when you cal something you need to cal from a single point omni mic because they don't have any proximity effect and reproduce freq content accurately in any give space. I don't know if you ever have looked at freq curves for mics. i don't know anyone would consider AT822 flat or almost  http://www.microphone-data.com/microphones/at822/!!! it is also not very sensitive and has a very low output. 

 

 

 

Totally disagree, why do high end stereo's come with a mic and detail the set up procedures for adjusting to room acoustics ei my reciever the Pioneer Elite VSX52-TX?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/VSX-52TX

I think you have a misconception of what a "high end receiver" is. There is just no such thing. when i here high end receiver i think audiophile. ask any one of those audiophile guys if they EQ inserted their playback chain or if a mic came with any of their components. the answer will be no. the proper approach would be treat your room and then make adjustments to your playback system. As far as i know there are not too many hifi EQ's out there. Pioneer makes low end consumer stereo products that appeal to people that one box that does it all. jack of all trades master of none. when you cal a room like that it limits the performance of monitors. your not getting accurate playback. your room would sound 1000 times better it you properly treated it for standing freqs and took the time to understand what your receiver is actually doing and how it cals the system. 

 

 

My ears are quite good as well but the auto-EQ can set the front and back EQ separately (or at least it appears to be able to, as it's measuring both separately!) and there is no way to do that manually!

 

Well, not unless you have a rather expensive outboard 4-channel (or 5-channel) EQ anyway.

 

That's one of the big challenges in a car -- the front and rear speakers are going to have materially-different frequency response curves due to the doors they're mounted in and other acoustic factors in the vehicle.

 

You are slightly incorrect. the freq response of the rear speakers doesn't change at all. The rear are usually placed in a high absorption area, low to between the front and rear seats. so you have a perceived sense that your speaker produce not enough high end. you may have some resonate freqs inside the door but really come on, if your concerned about that your music is either too loud which you wouldn't even hear that issue or you have the cheapest POS car in the world! honestly if that is of great concern you should treat your car doors. acoustic conditions will constantly change in a car. 

 

as i said before i am very confident in my ears as i use them every day to make a living. personally i think auto EQ is a waste of time. 

Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 08:00 UTC#41

I rather find the tone of your post CONDESCENDING, pompous and slightly malicious. I guess to you Pioneer products just basically suck. Why are you even on this forum?

Edited Jun 15, 2014 by Shackleton
Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 15:12 UTC#42

I rather find the tone of your post CONDESCENDING, pompous and slightly malicious. I guess to you Pioneer products just basically suck. Why are you even on this forum?

this is a forum to help people out. if someone is wrong i will surely let them know if have some knowledge in that related field (it just so happens i do). do you really think my comments are " malicious ". please help me understand why you think that way. there are strong options everywhere in life. there is nothing condescending about that and I'm sorry you feel that way. and yes i think most of Pioneer are not great and it totally show when you consider how they treat their customers and run their company. What i do like are their navi units. i have always been a fan of them. 

Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 16:51 UTC#43

Im not going to pic out the crud here and there, I may have used the wrong terms "high end" and "nearly flat" but I dont think they warrented the negativity here. MY OPINION is that the $ 700-1000 price range is a mid range reciever and pioneer makes some of the best in that range, also for car audio no one right now can touch the 4000 nex from any other company again my OPINION. If there is another unit with out NAV that is better and has ever single feature, please let me know?

 

A little back gound on me I play guitar, bass and drums. Classic rock to new wave. I have a 16 track recorder and have made a few full lenght albums on it with my band and others mind you not professional but ive learned the basics or recording, compression, effects and EQ.

Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 17:20 UTC#44

Im not going to pic out the crud here and there, I may have used the wrong terms "high end" and "nearly flat" but I dont think they warrented the negativity here. MY OPINION is that the $ 700-1000 price range is a mid range reciever and pioneer makes some of the best in that range, also for car audio no one right now can touch the 4000 nex from any other company again my OPINION. If there is another unit with out NAV that is better and has ever single feature, please let me know?

 

A little back gound on me I play guitar, bass and drums. Classic rock to new wave. I have a 16 track recorder and have made a few full lenght albums on it with my band and others mind you not professional but ive learned the basics or recording, compression, effects and EQ.

by no means was i trying to single anyone out. i think we just have a difference in opinion. i am a sound editor / recordist. i have what i would consider a large investment in microphones, others would say small. in fact sitting in front me as i write this there are two MKH 80 and a MKH 800. the 80's when introduced were around $8k each and the 800's were $6k. i paid pretty close near those prices and i am very humbled to be able to own such mics. those are just a few of the mics i own. a decent recording studio would have a lot more as you know. but its really about the tools we pick to do the job. i think a proper understanding and a bit of confidence goes a long way and can only go to improve your ability to chose and use the right tool for the job! I'm saying take a step back and pause. don't get caught thinking tech solves every issue. sometimes there are just no short cuts to get things done. 

Edited Jun 15, 2014 by myke2241
Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 17:37 UTC#45

Don't you find it ironic that a lot of professional well-known bands use SM58's onstage?

Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 17:39 UTC#46

Do you find it ironic that a lot of well-known bands use SM58s on stage?  I have you made USA and they all sound different. 

Edited Jun 15, 2014 by Shackleton
Posted Jun 15, 2014 · 23:17 UTC#47

Would you think that Arcam is not high end? While never previously a receiver person, my Arcam AVR600 certainly fit the bill and sounds as good and if not better than separates I have owned in the past. It comes with a microphone.

 

While I agree that treating a room as best as possible is ideal, there can still be reflections that need to be tamed and even identical speakers can vary in performance, as well as setting speaker levels. In these instances, room EQ can be very useful. Cars will always have different speakers, reflection points, etc. it may not be perfect, but auto EQ can be a useful tool for average consumers achieve better SQ.

Posted Jun 16, 2014 · 03:12 UTC#48

Would you think that Arcam is not high end? While never previously a receiver person, my Arcam AVR600 certainly fit the bill and sounds as good and if not better than separates I have owned in the past. It comes with a microphone.

 

While I agree that treating a room as best as possible is ideal, there can still be reflections that need to be tamed and even identical speakers can vary in performance, as well as setting speaker levels. In these instances, room EQ can be very useful. Cars will always have different speakers, reflection points, etc. it may not be perfect, but auto EQ can be a useful tool for average consumers achieve better SQ.

I agree but myke2241 states that high end does not come with a mic. $3000 for the lower end Arcam is not cheap. wow

Edited Jun 22, 2014 by Shackleton
Posted Jun 23, 2014 · 11:23 UTC#49

Do you find it ironic that a lot of well-known bands use SM58s on stage?  I have you made USA and they all sound different. 

Not at all.

 

Remember that when it comes to microphone performance what you want in a given microphone changes from use to use.  What I want for a presentation in front of a room that has a decent amount of background noise is a cardiod pattern with a low-frequency roll-off starting at about 100Hz because low-frequency energy in speech is mostly absent but rumble and rustle from things like the person's tie are not.  My point is to capture the speech accurately.

 

If I'm micing a singer I have a somewhat-similar set of desires.  If it's an acoustic instrument I may want as near to full-range response as I can get, depending on the instrument.  

 

Further, once I'm set up for a given instrument or person if I'm doing this night after night I will damn you to hell if you CHANGE the microphone that I've been using, because I know how it sounds, I have the board set up for it and I know exactly where everything should be.  You change that and I have to go back and do it all over again.

 

All I'm saying here is that the MC20 stinks pretty badly and a better microphone will return better results as determined by my empirical experience.

Posted Jun 23, 2014 · 11:35 UTC#50

The AT822 is a stereo XY which always uses a pair card or hyper card. when you cal something you need to cal from a single point omni mic because they don't have any proximity effect and reproduce freq content accurately in any give space. I don't know if you ever have looked at freq curves for mics. i don't know anyone would consider AT822 flat or almost  http://www.microphone-data.com/microphones/at822/!!! it is also not very sensitive and has a very low output. 

 

 

 

I think you have a misconception of what a "high end receiver" is. There is just no such thing. when i here high end receiver i think audiophile. ask any one of those audiophile guys if they EQ inserted their playback chain or if a mic came with any of their components. the answer will be no. the proper approach would be treat your room and then make adjustments to your playback system. As far as i know there are not too many hifi EQ's out there. Pioneer makes low end consumer stereo products that appeal to people that one box that does it all. jack of all trades master of none. when you cal a room like that it limits the performance of monitors. your not getting accurate playback. your room would sound 1000 times better it you properly treated it for standing freqs and took the time to understand what your receiver is actually doing and how it cals the system. 

 

 

 

You are slightly incorrect. the freq response of the rear speakers doesn't change at all. The rear are usually placed in a high absorption area, low to between the front and rear seats. so you have a perceived sense that your speaker produce not enough high end. you may have some resonate freqs inside the door but really come on, if your concerned about that your music is either too loud which you wouldn't even hear that issue or you have the cheapest POS car in the world! honestly if that is of great concern you should treat your car doors. acoustic conditions will constantly change in a car. 

 

as i said before i am very confident in my ears as i use them every day to make a living. personally i think auto EQ is a waste of time. 

This is kind-of correct right up until the last sentence :-)

 

The response of auto speakers is grossly influenced by the door (or other surface) they're mounted in.  It is basically impossible to properly match a speaker to the "enclosure" in a car (where the "enclosure" is the door or trunk) because you don't control the volume of the cavity (you get handed that) and you usually can't change it with absorption material in the door itself (most of the time you can't use absorption material in the cavity space at all.)  What you can (and should) do is try to isolate to the greatest possible extent the rear wave from entering the listening space, and that can usually be accomplished to some degree.

 

In addition doors are full of things that have resonance frequencies and while you can add dampening to the panels (and should) to dull them you can't do that to everything that has a resonance frequency (which would be pretty-much anything made out of a hard material in there.)  This inherently muddies the sound.  Car speaker companies don't generally make sealed-back drivers because doing so for low frequencies requires a very large driver and they won't fit.  As a result the assumption they are more or less forced to make is that the mounting surface is a flat panel with no resonance, the surface represents an infinite baffle with infinite compliance and no pathway for the back wave to reach the listening position.  All three assumptions are false in an actual car door.  While the interior of a car is a fairly-absorptive environment the  interior of a door itself is NOT.

 

The problem is exacerbated by the front and rear doors being of different volumes and having different resonances, even if you use the same speakers in both.

 

Then you add the fact that head units standing alone have one set of EQ controls for both front and rear rather than separate EQ -- unless you put a digital processor between the head unit and amp.

 

The "auto eq" function, properly implemented, gives you that processor.  What it doesn't (unfortunately) give you is the ability to manually adjust things instead of accepting its idea of "right."  If you want that you're going to have to buy an outboard unit because I've yet to see a head unit that exposes that to manual user setting (I wish it did!)

 

As for observations on the mic and receivers he's right.  Pioneer makes middle-of-the road and low-end consumer audio gear.  You may think differently, but you're wrong. 

 

But -- even a low or middle-of-the-road system, set up properly, will blow a high end system out of the water where the person setting it up and optimizing the room to the extent possible doesn't know what he's doing.

 

The NEX auto-eq works very well for what it is provided you have a decent full-range omni mic to feed it and a decent set of speakers to produce the sound.  It's not perfect but it beats manual adjustment because it can (and does) separately EQ the front and rear channels which cannot be manually done in the head unit.

Edited Jun 23, 2014 by tickerguy
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