Dear all,

Needless to repeat the F-series are not working as they should. And yes, some of uw are happy with it, and yes some of us think is not that bad, at least not in a degree where we need to sue them, but I would really like to give them a strong signal that selling unfinished products at - premium - Pioneer prices is not done and creates a lot of frustration.

And when explicitely communicating the problems and bugs to Pioneer their people try to convince us the device has just minor issues and it is working perfectly fine. (That is the easy solution of course; take the money and don't listen anymore to what your customer has to say.)

If we just let this happen what is going to be next? Us, users / consumers being PAYING beta-testers for all their products and depending on Pioneer's goodwill to get a solution for the bugs? Note that the product has been launched more that 6 months ago and it still has lots of bugs. This really has to stop.

Let's have a brainstorming on how we can bundle our forces and sue them as a community rather and and annying, unhappy individual user that is not going to be able to take i up against the big firm and their lawyer anyway. Does anyone have past experiences with similar cases, both in the USA and - especially - in Europe. I have contacted a lawyer and should get more information tomorrow.

Dear fellow F-series users, MAKE YOUR VOICES HEARD, and let's get what we paid for. In the end, I think the most important thing is not even to get a refund, but rather put the necessary pressure on Pioneer to have them make the necessary bug-fixes in an acceptable time frame. (1 or 2 months) and make the device at least a bit more user-friendly than it is today, based on the feed-back - I'm sure - we all are more than willing to provide to them!!

A note to all the happy users: I'm glad to see there are happy users too, of course you are not obliged to join us. We have the fullest respect for your opinion. Thanks in advance to respect our opinion too.

you have to be kidding me.. a lawsuit?

get real.. the only, ONLY people that win are the lawyers,

Just say "oops I made a mistake" and buy something else..

on the other hand.. what do I know.. I'm only a "recreational user"

I totally agree with you my friend. This capitalism has came to a point where it gets on my nerves more and more. It is not only Pioneer but I continue having different battles with other companies like Nokia for instance.

I will not tolerate to be ripped off with undelivered promises. And I can't stand comments like "I wanted a F900bt rather than F90bt since it gets less freezes and lockups" What does this mean? Why should I pay hundreds of dollars to an unfinished products which actually freezes. It is more like accepting Toyota airbags kick in 6 out of 10 accidents so I should buy that car. No. It has to do 10 out of 10 or else you're killed.

If there are so many consumers who do not object to have ripped or fooled by manufacturers they start to think, "oh well, why should I care what they think if they are silently accepting it" I'll fix the software change add the button size and the model name and sell it as a new product for 200 dollars more. Yeah right!

This is the mentality constantly growing in the world and unfortunately dear old microsoft has started this mess by fixing things way later with service packs.

To manifacturers: Either do it properly or don't claim you produced "top gear". I don't earn my money easily and will not hand it over to the brands I get pissed of easily.

Anyone remembers the selling lines in theAVIC F's şaunch campaigns?

-The most advanced and sophisticated in-car navigation multimedia devices. (Yeah right!Have you seen a kenwood or an alpine unit yet?)

-Daily map updates. Oh yeah? (Only I haven't received anything for the past 10.000 days.)

To indifferent users: Next product which is not tested and put to market can be your pacemaker, your baby food or plane aviation software. If you don't stand up to this and accept silently you'll regret it one day.

And to mastrch: I understand your frustration especially after talking the "Pioneer Reps" who know nothing and care about nothing. Count me in on this. Maybe we should start a website campaign first called "don't by avic" and get some public attention in. I've created a thread for Nokia which has been there forever and many users signed up to it. Just google Nokia 6110n bugs and you'll see yourself. I managed to get two firmware upgrades to a discontinued phone although there are still many other bugs left.

Viva la Resistance!

I think everyone here knows my position.

First I am glad I did no pull the trigger on this series. Back in July I posted about how dissapointed I was in the launch and follow up from Pioneer on the F series. I got some flack from some of the forum members. Funny, six months later and looks like Pioneer still does not have their act together.

Since June of 2008 there has been some 843 Problems/Troubleshooting posts on the F series. When you consider that the members of this Forum are only a limited number of the actual people that have bought this product that seems to me like an excessive amount of issues for a product that is less then a year old.

It would take alot to file a lawsuit against a company like Pioneer. Although it sounds great I doubt it could happen. However I am going to paste my original post in hopes that it will help you guys out that want to complain.

This is a copy and paste of my original post. It has all the contact info you need for Pioneer USA Auto Electronics. I hope all of you with issues pursue them directly. There is an old saying, "You get a better show if you rattle the gage."

The press release link has been removed by Pioneer. Geez I wonder why?

----------------------

I don’t post very often on this sight, but I read it religiously for information. Thank God I did not pull the trigger on the F series. When I heard about it coming out the first of the year I was phone call away from ordering a Z series. Figured I would wait because the F series looked like it had all the features that I wanted.

As a consumer I could not be more disappointed in a product launch and I don’t even own one yet.

I manufacture and provide services in to industrial clientele. If put out a product like this I would be out of business, period. Its amazing how stupid and ignorant companies take the general public for.

I have found that sometimes those that sit in the Ivory Tower are completely isolated from what is really going on around them. As consumers we should let these Ivory Tower executives know how we feel about there products.

Let’s start with this guy. Larry Rougas

From Pioneers Web Site:

-------------------------

Larry Rougas is vice president of marketing and product planning for the Mobile Entertainment Division of Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. In this capacity, he heads the marketing and product planning initiatives for Pioneer's core mobile products that include audio video, satellite radio, single CD players, amplifiers and speakers. As a marketer, he strives to reach consumers with creative advertising and branding campaigns, implement dealer and distributor sales programs with extremely high "sell-through" to consumers and utilizes various channels such as website, online and literature to inform and educate consumers of Pioneer products and technologies. As the head of product planning, he is deeply involved in the progression and development of existing and future products in his category. His primary objectives are to offer the most innovative products and produce mobile devices to fit various lifestyles.

Rougas has been with Pioneer for more than 11 years. He started his Pioneer career as a product specialist in 1995. In 1996, he joined the sales team as a district sales manager for the New England and New York territory where he held the position for seven years. In 2003, Rougas became a zone director and one year later he was promoted to vice president of national account sales overseeing sales activities of large national accounts including Best Buy, Circuit City and Wal-mart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

He is out of the Long Beach Corporate Office.

The corporate phone number is (213) 746-6337:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/ ... e+Services.

On this press release there is an email for [email protected]

I tried to find Larry’s email but could not. I might be [email protected]. I will give it a try and see it if gets kicked back If anyone else finds it, post it so we can let him know what we think, especially those of you that actually bought this Turkey in disguise.

I think its time we spend a minute or two and let them know how disappointed we are that they could even think of allowing this product to go to market. As others said, how in the world did this product make it through the QA testing.

You know, at least with Microsoft we know were getting the BSD, regardless of the version. We expect it because unfortunately for the masses there is no alternative operating system. Pioneer on the other hand has got to understand first hand that we have the ability to buy other products, equal if not better to there’s

You'll spend more than you spent on the unit. Count your losses and move on, you're not going to win against Pioneer.

And Tacoma, we all know where you stand lol

wow,

I'm always stunned at the number of whining petulant children that think the world owes them something.

We make mistakes, it's a freeking car stereo, get over it. Even at full list price, it's $1,200.

Pioneer will never care about all these trivial issues, for the majority of people out there, this unit will function fine and meet their needs, and for some of us, we'll enjoy it.

Welcome to consumer electronics in the 21st century, things are shoved out the door 1/2 done all the time, if you feel a manufacturer isn't doing right by you, vote with your money and your feet, buy something else.

If you're successful in this foolish folly of a lawsuit? (and you won't be) and Pioneer decides "why bother to do car navigation, it's not worth it" then units like this won't be part of the lineup anymore, and congratulations, you win, and everyone else loses.

Of all the things to get upset over in life, and of the things worthy of a lawsuit, this isn't one of them.

For those just coming here and complaining, how about hanging out in the forums and helping people, I've been here for a while, and there are great people here that are just here to help others, and ask nothing in return.

Diane

I've only had my F900 for five days and this is only my second post. However, I love this unit! I came from a Kenwood that I liked also but like the Pioneer much better. Are you serious about a lawsuit? First you have to have grounds, good luck with that. If you know of a perfect unit, please share and I'll switch in a heartbeat. I don't think one exists but the f900 is pretty close, at least to me after five days.

Thanks to this forum, I've been able to solve issues like getting voice recognition to work with my iPhone by adjusting my contacts, now it works. I learned how to do the hardwire bypass, now it works. I really can't think of anything else that doesn't work. What is there to sue over?

OK I'll get off of my soapbox, I'm too new here to be a jerk and this is also meant as a thanks to everyone that contributes to this site to solve issues that I may have had that would have made me want to sue also.

Not sure about where you guys live, but I wasn't able to "test drive" my F90 before I bought it. I had to special order it, and am pretty sure I may have been the first one here to get one. I saw the commercial online and I bought it.

I like to think that I am familiar with electronics, so if something isn't working the way it is supposed to I google it. (Yes google is a verb.) I found this forum, and now I have all this wonderful info at my fingertips. Even before I installed 2.0 my F90 wasn't working poorly. Keep in mind how many variables there are in car audio. Speaker placement, Dash sizes, resistance to ground, and lets not forget about how many different models of Bluetooth cell phones there are out there. No two situations will be completely identical, so Pioneer would have no way of predicting how it will react in every vehicle, with every cell phone imaginable.

Regardless, I love this unit. And being that it does run on Windows, there will always be somebody out there trying to improve it. I am not sure if Kenwood or Alpine, etc. have that kind of worldwide support. My cell phone has WM6.1 and people are writing new stuff for it everyday (almost).

If there is heavy traffic ahead or an accident, do you call the city and tell them to fix it or else you will sue them? No, you take the next exit and you go around it.

Gas prices were sky-rocketing back in the summer. Do you sue GM for making a truck that sucks back the gas, or maybe sue Shell, Esso or Petro-Can for jacking up the prices? No, you do some research and you find a hybrid, or a smaller less powerful *Ford* truck to save you some money.

Lawsuits are out of control. Buyer beware is a good rule of thumb. With the internet available to pretty much everybody, there is no excuse for not doing research and reading reviews about the product you are about to buy. With Ebay also available to everybody, I am sure you could sell your AVIC to somebody, buy the Kenwood or Alpine, etc. and avoid the headache of a lawsuit in the process. Cut your losses and move on...

Give your head a shake.

I'm not sure I want to sue, but I do agree that there is a huge gap between the commercial and the product. I really wish I bought the kenwood instead.

I think the best thing to do is contact a law firm that specializes in class action. It won't cost us a thing. Perhaps we'll get something out of it, perhaps not. But a super-special message is sent to the manufacturer.

(She says as she packs her *@&^#% F900BT into a box to send it back to CA for repairs)

Damn, even when it comes back repaired, I can't even sell it on ebay or I'll prolly get negative feedback for the $1200 piece of $hit LOL.

 

Damn, even when it comes back repaired, I can't even sell it on ebay or I'll prolly get negative feedback for the $1200 piece of $hit LOL.

PMSL

 

Damn, even when it comes back repaired, I can't even sell it on ebay or I'll prolly get negative feedback for the $1200 piece of $hit LOL.

PMSL

Dear all,

Needless to repeat the F-series are not working as they should.

That'll fly in the court.

I totally agree with you my friend. This capitalism has came to a point where it gets on my nerves more and more. It is not only Pioneer but I continue having different battles with other companies like Nokia for instance.

 

I will not tolerate to be ripped off with undelivered promises. And I can't stand comments like "I wanted a F900bt rather than F90bt since it gets less freezes and lockups" What does this mean? Why should I pay hundreds of dollars to an unfinished products which actually freezes. It is more like accepting Toyota airbags kick in 6 out of 10 accidents so I should buy that car. No. It has to do 10 out of 10 or else you're killed.

 

If there are so many consumers who do not object to have ripped or fooled by manufacturers they start to think, "oh well, why should I care what they think if they are silently accepting it" I'll fix the software change add the button size and the model name and sell it as a new product for 200 dollars more. Yeah right!

 

This is the mentality constantly growing in the world and unfortunately dear old microsoft has started this mess by fixing things way later with service packs.

 

To manifacturers: Either do it properly or don't claim you produced "top gear". I don't earn my money easily and will not hand it over to the brands I get pissed of easily.

 

Anyone remembers the selling lines in theAVIC F's şaunch campaigns?

 

-The most advanced and sophisticated in-car navigation multimedia devices. (Yeah right!Have you seen a kenwood or an alpine unit yet?)

 

-Daily map updates. Oh yeah? (Only I haven't received anything for the past 10.000 days.)

 

To indifferent users: Next product which is not tested and put to market can be your pacemaker, your baby food or plane aviation software. If you don't stand up to this and accept silently you'll regret it one day.

 

And to mastrch: I understand your frustration especially after talking the "Pioneer Reps" who know nothing and care about nothing. Count me in on this. Maybe we should start a website campaign first called "don't by avic" and get some public attention in. I've created a thread for Nokia which has been there forever and many users signed up to it. Just google Nokia 6110n bugs and you'll see yourself. I managed to get two firmware upgrades to a discontinued phone although there are still many other bugs left.

 

Viva la Resistance!

Thats some funny stuff guys. Do you know what a class action lawsuit against Pioneer would cost? Matter of principal maybe? But I doubt your pockets are that deep.

Want to do something better? Someone that has been ripping us off WAY TOO LONG. They Beta test crap in the open market and make us pay for it? Yeah we actually get to buy the stuff and pay full price for it, plus we get to beta test it and report the errors... SUE MICROSOFT!

I totally agree with you my friend. This capitalism has came to a point where it gets on my nerves more and more. It is not only Pioneer but I continue having different battles with other companies like Nokia for instance.

 

I will not tolerate to be ripped off with undelivered promises. And I can't stand comments like "I wanted a F900bt rather than F90bt since it gets less freezes and lockups" What does this mean? Why should I pay hundreds of dollars to an unfinished products which actually freezes. It is more like accepting Toyota airbags kick in 6 out of 10 accidents so I should buy that car. No. It has to do 10 out of 10 or else you're killed.

 

If there are so many consumers who do not object to have ripped or fooled by manufacturers they start to think, "oh well, why should I care what they think if they are silently accepting it" I'll fix the software change add the button size and the model name and sell it as a new product for 200 dollars more. Yeah right!

 

This is the mentality constantly growing in the world and unfortunately dear old microsoft has started this mess by fixing things way later with service packs.

 

To manifacturers: Either do it properly or don't claim you produced "top gear". I don't earn my money easily and will not hand it over to the brands I get pissed of easily.

 

Anyone remembers the selling lines in theAVIC F's şaunch campaigns?

 

-The most advanced and sophisticated in-car navigation multimedia devices. (Yeah right!Have you seen a kenwood or an alpine unit yet?)

 

-Daily map updates. Oh yeah? (Only I haven't received anything for the past 10.000 days.)

 

To indifferent users: Next product which is not tested and put to market can be your pacemaker, your baby food or plane aviation software. If you don't stand up to this and accept silently you'll regret it one day.

 

And to mastrch: I understand your frustration especially after talking the "Pioneer Reps" who know nothing and care about nothing. Count me in on this. Maybe we should start a website campaign first called "don't by avic" and get some public attention in. I've created a thread for Nokia which has been there forever and many users signed up to it. Just google Nokia 6110n bugs and you'll see yourself. I managed to get two firmware upgrades to a discontinued phone although there are still many other bugs left.

 

Viva la Resistance!

Thats some funny stuff guys. Do you know what a class action lawsuit against Pioneer would cost? Matter of principal maybe? But I doubt your pockets are that deep.

Want to do something better? Someone that has been ripping us off WAY TOO LONG. They Beta test crap in the open market and make us pay for it? Yeah we actually get to buy the stuff and pay full price for it, plus we get to beta test it and report the errors... SUE MICROSOFT!

I'm probably going to get flamed. Whatever.

When building software, there are 3 components. You can break them down further, but these are the basics.

After spending months drawing up the loong looong list of what you WANT to have in your product, and the idea of getting to Market by a certain date, you then have to face the realities of:

#1 - Cost

#2 - Features (plus reliability)

#3 - Time

That one feature harder to code than expected? Too buggy or doesn't pass an extensive test review? Well, either cut it entirely, or add money (pay more developers) and time. Or if you think you can fix it, just not by market date, delay it for a service pack/flash update.

Realize you need to add/change features? Going to cost more money to pay the developers, or extend the time to market - maybe by months meaning you miss the Christmas release where the bean counters had made plans to show a profit.

Developers running behind because you set unrealistic expectations and are going to miss the time to market? Either pay more developers, take some hits on test/quality, or start cutting non-essential (or maybe essential) features.

You can play this game all day long, but those are the 3 realities of building software, be it for your computer or your car. No software is, or will ever be, perfect, especially on it's first time out the door. It's too farking expensive to make it so.

I don't see why you'd get flamed, that makes perfect sense. And Pioneer also released not one, but two updates to correct the probems as best as they can to date. The unit is now in a position where it functions and the features work. Back months ago when it released there was a lot wrong with it, but not now. Now the majority of the F series owners are satisfied, especially the Pre-update owners. I've even read posts where members regret going Kenwood.

Point is YOU WILL NOT WIN ANY KIND OF LAWSUIT AGAINST PIONEER.

I don't see why you'd get flamed, that makes perfect sense. And Pioneer also released not one, but two updates to correct the probems as best as they can to date. The unit is now in a position where it functions and the features work. Back months ago when it released there was a lot wrong with it, but not now. Now the majority of the F series owners are satisfied, especially the Pre-update owners. I've even read posts where members regret going Kenwood.

 

Point is YOU WILL NOT WIN ANY KIND OF LAWSUIT AGAINST PIONEER.

I think its kind of futile to argue this here, but those of you who insist that one cannot sue Pioneer may not have familiarity with a class action lawsuit.

Take a look at the Sprint class action lawsuit going on right now over the ETF. I joined that suit. I don't expect to make any moeny, or maybe a few bucks (hardly what I spend in 2 weeks on my Sprint bill). But the point is that Sprint has been sent a clear message.

I would not expect to make any money off of a class action lawsuit against Pioneer. I would be lucky to get 50 bucks compensation, much less have my money back.

A class action attorney would get a percentage of any damages awarded to the plaintiffs, so often the attorneys clients do not pay out of pocket.

And I think there are very good grounds for a law suit. I could simply play the videos presented by Pioneer and then record a video of me trying to use my system (and others), and it is pretty obvious there is significant disparity between what was advertised, and what was sold.

Having said all this, I suspect we wont have a class action lawsuit since there are not a great many customers who purchased the system, and hence not enough complaints to make it worth while.

http://law.freeadvice.com/litigation/cl ... awsuit.htm

Look at this - if a law suit can be filed over this, certainly the complaints about the AVIC -F series would hold water:

http://www.zimmreed.com/lifetime-fitness-lawsuit.htm

Yes good devices exist. I have read VERY GOOD reviews of the Clarion MAX983HD and the JVC KW NX 7000. The First one is more expensive, the latter one cheaper.

P.S. to whoopidoo2,Your analysis is quite right. Translate this to business terms and you get:

I want to launch a new product. And want to make a LOT of money. Now, how can I do that? Let me think, keep costs low, calculate how many programmers and how long you can put the on the job for that budget, without asking them if it is realistic. Then sell your product at high prices, make good money and aspecially do not listen to your customers' complaints.

To Dianebrat:

why are you taking these threads THIS personal?? I just said that - referring to myself - if you use the device in an intesive way, it drives you crazy. Changes in navigation instruction volumes all the time while driving in dense traffic, muted phone calls all the time when having important business related phone calls. And so on. If you just listen to music and use navigation to your parent's house (a 5km ride you have done countless times), then indeed maybe you will be happy with the device. Note that I'm overstating everything to illustratie my point. So don't think I'm talking about you personally again here, this is a general statement... I don't know how intesively (or not) you use the device so I don't make any statement whatsoever as to that. You - as many other users including myself - probably feel your are an important and intensive user anyway, whatever usage you have of the device.

Dear Diane, breath in deeply, breaath out fully, count to ten slowly, relax and don't feel offended this quickly in life, you will be much happier.

All I can say is WOW! Americans sure love to sue. I love my f90 and have encountered no problems yet. I guess I'll have to read more to find them. No one forced you to buy it. Move on with your life. Go buy another brand and you'll go through the same thing I'm sure. Some people can't be pleased.

I agree with Tacomaboy, In then end it is more the priciple than the money that counts. Pioneer definitely will think twice in the future before launching an unfinished product. And yes, no one forced me to buy it, only thing is that I didn't get the decvice I thought I was buying and I would never have bought it if I was informed of the bug and problems.

In the end us, customers, will gain a lot from it. At least than you can expect a product to - more or less - meet the commercials. Producers will always go one step further if we don't react. WHERE WILL IT END???

 

P.S. to whoopidoo2,Your analysis is quite right. Translate this to business terms and you get:

 

I want to launch a new product. And want to make a LOT of money. Now, how can I do that? Let me think, keep costs low, calculate how many programmers and how long you can put the on the job for that budget, without asking them if it is realistic. Then sell your product at high prices, make good money and aspecially do not listen to your customers' complaints.

Sort of. A developer (or more likely, developers managers) may say it will take an estimated X amount of time to say....integrate IPOD *perfectly* with an F90. Then Ipod goes and updates to Version 6 or releases a new (very popular) device. Whoops. Start over. Still have to watch that clock and count the dollars. Now all of a sudden the Ipod doesn't pause when a call comes in. Should that stop shipping the product? Nope. Won't happen. I'm making that up, but you see the point.

As for listening to customer's complaints - no, that's a key part as well. Part of the cost involved isn't just for building the product initially, but also for planning and paying for the software updates that will obviously be needed and for paying for support and warranty personnel. For Pioneer, this also includes hardware failures.

This is a great reason for putting Beta products - like Microsoft does - on the market to test it with as many people as possible. For Microsoft, I would suspect it costs them very little comparitively to get bugs submitted for review on a Beta product that hundreds of thousands or millions of people downloaded for free, when compared to the support costs of taking the thousands of phone calls to fix it after it goes to market. Support costs for any business are a losing proposition.

A little harder to beta test car audio than Windows, however. Unfortunate.

Personally, if Pioneer put out a 2.1 update to fix a few (minor, given the scope) issues, I'd be super pleased. Any issues I have with the unit are pretty minor, and for the price I paid I definitely think I got my money's worth - especially when compared to the POS factory radio that was in my vehicle when I started.

Sorry for the long rant.

Or just sell your unit and buy something "better". Problem solved.

All I can say is WOW! Americans sure love to sue. I love my f90 and have encountered no problems yet. I guess I'll have to read more to find them. No one forced you to buy it. Move on with your life. Go buy another brand and you'll go through the same thing I'm sure. Some people can't be pleased.

I am Amercian and I have never sued anyone, nor do I like the idea.

Pioneer advertised a great product, I paid 1000 bucks for it, and it turned out to be terrible.

How does that make me the bad guy for wanting A: My money back, or B: A good product?