I'm ready to start building a lossless collection on usb and or ssd.
I want to know what type and size (capacity) drives are the best.
this is important for efficiency (how well and quickly the head unit can process the data and build the readable, searchable folder structure when the drives are swapped or inserted)
this is also important for convenience (how much music the drive will carry versus the cost of drive size and quantity of drives required for the collection)
Great subject there.
I already have the lossless collection on my computer. Current size is 277GB. SD is out, though I may use it for latest playlist or backup for other means failing or not immediately available 
I currently use an 120GB iPod Classic in vehicles now. As you can see, even my iPod cannot hold my entire collection, so I trim it down to all-time favorites.
I'd prefer to just get a USB SSD and looking at 500GB minimum. The downside I see now is, all my lossless files are encoded ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec; .m4a file extension) because that's what the iPod supports. From what I understand some later models support FLAC. However, I have yet to see an HU that supports ALAC other than through an i'anything. So I'll have to convert my library to FLAC.
The other downside is AFAIK, the NEX doesn't support playlists on USB/SD drives.... I mean, come on, how could a designer think playlist capability with digital media files is not something necessary. What planet are they from? ...or is their personal collection so small, they have no need for playlist capability? Yet we have Artists, Genre, and other track selection means!!!
(Apologize if that seems a bit rant-ish at the end )
I use a 120GB SSD on my 4000 and it works fine. Format it in FAT32, however, because you can sort a FAT32 drive -- you CANNOT sort a NTFS one, and Pioneer brain-farted on this particular aspect of things when going through things by artist and album in "file" mode.
awesome feedback! thanks for getting involved on this.....
I use a samsung 840 EVO, 250 gb with around 200 ripped dvds, and it works great. I also have 160 gb intel ssd with music on it. Both formatted with fat32. I know the limit for these units is in folders and files, not size of ssd. Now SD card of course is 32 gb. Movies are limited to 4 gb.
Yep.
BTW use a USB3 SSD enclosure. I like these; they're inexpensive and work well: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EIGUD4/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This comes with a double-USB cable (two USB "A" plugs and one micro-USB3 to go into the box.) For SSD use you need only one of the USB plugs, so you can thus buy a single cable such as this: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030310&p_id=11168&seq=1&format=2
I mounted a piece of acetyl up under my glovebox on a pair of unused studs, lining the top side with velcro. A piece of mating velcro on the enclosure thus gives me a very nice hidden mount for the SSD so the enclosure is sitting on a "shelf", is constrained laterally and secured with the velcros -- it works beautifully and yet I can get to it without tools in ~30 seconds if I want to extract the enclosure to plug it into my PC for updates.
On first connection it takes several minutes to read and index the drive, but on subsequent startups the check for the volume label (to confirm it has not changed) only requires a few seconds -- it's nice and fast.
Considered a U32 Shadow USB 3.0 480GB SSD...
...and also a Samsung 840 EVO 500GB laptop kit (includes SATA to USB 3.0 adapter)...
Currently considering a Crucial 480GB mSATA drive in a USB 3.0 mSATA enclosure. Couldn't get a definite size on the enclosure but it should be smaller than one for a 2.5" SATA SSD.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GQV1VFA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A23NVCSO4PYH3S
Just use a 2.5" (laptop) SSD; that's your best option. That "drive in a box" thing on Amazon is a bit expensive (but not ruinously so) however there are comments that it does not support TRIM. For this particular application that doesn't much matter, but I prefer to buy known devices from known manufacturers. This is a device that you might want to use for some other purpose at a later date, and it's nice to have one that will work that way.
The SSD I'm using is a Vertex II that I happened to have laying around..... so my cost was just that of the enclosure.
Note that the Crucial drive you noted has a rather high power consumption for a SSD. This can be a problem; you have 5 watts available net-net, more or less, on those USB ports and the interface in the box consumes a bit of power. I think you'll be ok with the Crucial but you don't have a lot of margin remaining.
Here's a 250GB that's $130 and has a power consumption under 1 watt. Lower is better, and not just due to potentially exceeding the power capability on the USB bus -- it also comes into play with heat generation and in a car, that matters.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147247&leaderboard=1
tickerguy,
I don't know where you get your information, but the Crucial M500 SSD 480GB unit power consumption is only slightly higher than the Samsung 840 EVO 500GB unit. (1.09 to 0.98 watts).
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crucial-m500-1tb-ssd,3551-12.html
BTW, USB ports are rated at 1.6A, which translates into 8 watts at 5 volts.
When you find a 500GB SSD drive for $130, let me know...
Anyway, my current thought is to mod my iPod with a 500GB mSATA drive. If I manage to pull it off, I won't have to convert all my ALAC files to FLAC, and I'll still have playlist support through the iPod.
Their larger drives have registered over 4 watts maximum consumption. Yes, the port is rated at 1.6A @ 5V but that assumes the port can run in "Type B" mode. "By the specs" that means the same port is NOT passing data.
While passing data the USB (rev 1 and 2) spec says the bus power limit is 500ma. That's 2.5 watts, and you need some for the interface chip.
USB rev 3 is the first revision that allows high power connections while data is also being run on the same port, but the NEX units are USB rev 2. Feel free to play fast and loose with the rules if you'd like but if you get bit by it don't say you weren't warned.
Incidentally my phone refuses to go into high-current mode when connected to the NEX because it sees data on the data pins instead of a short or a fixed voltage reference (which is what is supposed to be there to get into "Type B" mode depending on if you're everyone but Apple, or Apple.) I don't know if the NEX will actually deliver more than 500ma if it is running data at the same time, but if it does then it's violating the USB 2 specification.
Their larger drives have registered over 4 watts maximum consumption.
Yes, the port is rated at 1.6A @ 5V but that assumes the port can run in "Type B" mode. "By the specs" that means the same port is NOT passing data.
While passing data the USB (rev 1 and 2) spec says the bus power limit is 500ma. That's 2.5 watts, and you need some for the interface chip.
USB rev 3 is the first revision that allows high power connections while data is also being run on the same port, but the NEX units are USB rev 2. Feel free to play fast and loose with the rules if you'd like but if you get bit by it don't say you weren't warned.
With my current intent to mod my iPod, I'm not going to be overly concerned. The NEX supports an iPod with a platter drive. I'll make the assumption it will support one with an SSD...
BTW, do you happen to know if the NEX (8000, specifically) keeps the USB ports powered when the HU is off?
Incidentally my phone refuses to go into high-current mode when connected to the NEX because it sees data on the data pins instead of a short or a fixed voltage reference (which is what is supposed to be there to get into "Type B" mode depending on if you're everyone but Apple, or Apple.) I don't know if the NEX will actually deliver more than 500ma if it is running data at the same time, but if it does then it's violating the USB 2 specification.
FWIW, there are options if more power is necessary. Example:
...and if you want to keep the other NEX port available for another device, you can add another power supply for the cable. Example:
Nope on the USB power remaining on when shut down (assuming you mean ignition off.)
Yes, you can provide an external power supply, and I would if you're going to use a spinning rust disk. Most USB3 external enclosures are shipping with a dual-USB plug on the other end, which consumes both USB ports but provides 1 A @ 5V, which is at least 5 watts. That's probably enough. The other option is an external supply that will accept 12V but then you need to find switched 12V power for it; the lighter in the console is switched (the one in the arm rest is unswitched.)
I would surmise the second plug, the one connected to the thinner cable, is power only, and thus should not have data transfer on it. By your own words, this would be a Type B mode and permit full charging power... 1.6A plus 500mA on the data-transceiving plug, for 2.1A, 10.5 watts total... but as you say, at least 5 watts.
Additionally, there is no requirement I know of that says you must use an ignition-switched source for the additional power supply. The HU USB power supplies should be at the very least diode protected, such that no current can flow in reverse into the HU. The potential downside is the vehicle's 12V battery will have a so-called phantom load on it and discharge a bit while not being recharged. It is up to the consumer to decide whether the phantom load is desired or not.
Of course you don't have to use switched power, but note that the parasitic load on most car batteries with the vehicle "sleeping" is in the neighborhood of 40-50 milliamps, which sums to the neighborhood of 1/2 watt or thereabouts.
If you wish to put several times that load on your battery when the vehicle is off simply to have a disk on your head unit you're free to do it but I strongly suggest you think long and hard before doing so, especially if there are times that the vehicle sits un-driven for days at a time.
...parasitic load...
Thanks for using the proper term... I couldn't think of it when I was posting.
However, I should point out that you have to consider connecting the parasitic load in terms of watts with respect to time. Actually, it should be put in terms of Ah (Ampere-hours), or in this case, mAh... then compared to the Ah rating of the battery. In short, you don't want to discharge the battery to the point the vehicle will not start!
Anyway, I got side tracked and didn't elaborate enough. The only reason for connecting to an unswitched source would be for keeping a device with an internal battery charged. In the case of a drive, there is no need. I was thinking in terms of a media player such as my iPod. In most cases, my iPod doesn't leave the vehicle except to modify its contents.... but I want it fully charged on the occasions it leaves for other reasons
if I have 500 cd's to rip lossless:
do I get one ssd large enough to hold all 500, or will the count of files/folders end up beyond the max
do I get two smaller ssd's (one for 1 and the other for 2)
Go with one large ssd. JMO
what size, 500 is not too large?
I have a 500GB external HDD which I'm going to test with a mini USB3 Y-cable. The other end has two USB cables which I'm going to plug into both ports on the AVH-4000. If it works, I'll have a solution with an external drive I already have, which will hopefully work until I can budget some big SSDs. I will actually install a separate USB power source ($13) to plug the 2nd USB plug into, a dual USB which would allow two HDDs to connect. If all goes well, I could add a 2nd drive just like it for $60 vs about $230 for an SSD + enclosure. Dang budget. It seems clear that a typical SSD USB drive can simply plug into the back and work. If it does work, it'll probably take quite a while on the first read, but apparently that goes away after the initial run. I don't know if there is any difference in the speed of reading the files initially on an SSD vs HDD.
I have the drive maxed out at 14,999 FLAC files, within 1,421 folders, primarily across-the-board rock music. I don't know how many CDs it is, but it's in the hundreds, as a big percentage of the 1,421 folders represent individual CDs. With a couple exceptions for testing purposes, these FLAC files are all individual songs. This batch of music yields 370GB. The range, compressed, seems to be 200-500MB per CD, with most between 250-350MB per disk. I guess that if I figured 370MB per CD, I've got roughly 1,000 CDs on it. So if you figure 500MB x 500 CDs, you're looking at about 250GB. If they average 300MB per CD, you're at about 150GB. Good chance you can do them all in a 250GB SSD or even a 256GB USB flash drive, or two 128GB USB flash drives.
thank you for the awesome, complete answer!
and if I understand the functionality of the 8000, there is no need to put the cd's on the drive in any particular order because they can be searched in any way through the hu software (except for playlists of course)
The indexing is a one-shot unless you change files on the drive, then it requires some time again (but not nearly as much.) On a startup after the disk has been previously attached it takes maybe 20 seconds before it starts playing. The first read takes several minutes.
This is with a 120Gb SSD. Note that you can format either in FAT32 or NTFS, but beware that folder (not song!) sort order is a problem; you can sort a FAT directory drive, but NOT a NTFS one.
The indexing is a one-shot unless you change files on the drive, then it requires some time again (but not nearly as much.) On a startup after the disk has been previously attached it takes maybe 20 seconds before it starts playing. The first read takes several minutes.
This is with a 120Gb SSD. Note that you can format either in FAT32 or NTFS, but beware that folder (not song!) sort order is a problem; you can sort a FAT directory drive, but NOT a NTFS one.
tickerguy, can you please elaborate on the folder sorting thing? I have the folders on the 500GB drive (NTFS) in alphabetical order by artist, with album folders under the artist, then the files themselves in order by number, as in "01 Blitzkrieg Bop.flac", "02 Beat on the Brat.flac". Does that mean that when it reads the drive, it might list the folders out of order, as in having U2 before the Beatles? I'm not interested in scanning by song, artist, genre, etc., just hoping to have it so when I switch to a USB input that it lists the folders the same way they appear on my computer. It sounds like that would be the case with FAT32, but they may be jumbled in NTFS?
It's the same for both FAT32 & NTFS, however with FAT32 there are other options (FATSorter being one) which will reorganise the folders into alphabetical order. With NTFS you wouldn't have the option and the order will be the order they're added to the SD card / USB drive.
It's one simple line of code in the HU software (Android) to do the sorting, but they didn't add it so you're stuck with doing it outside of the HU.
Thanks for the insight, MarketSqHero. That is annoying, but I think it would be worth spending some extra time carefully placing the folders in order if I went NTFS, considering I'll likely fill the drive on the first shot and won't have to do anything further with it after that. Good to hear there is a viable solution, even though it seems rather clunky with either format! It's like when I finally got around to organizing my roughy 2,500 LP collection; it was a nightmare to find anything until I spent an entire day sorting them. Now it's no problem finding a record, so it was worth it in that case, too.
A big thanks to everyone here, btw. The info I've been gaining will make my install and subsequent usage MUCH better!