Quite honestly if only Pioneer Legal would write up a disclaimer absolving the company of any responsibility, shifting the responsibility of a potential distraction to the owner then as a result providing the software bypass. We'd be done with this nonsense and everybody would be happy.

This sparked an idea... (think "The Shawshank Redemption") What if we start an e-mail writing campaign? All of us should write Pioneer customer support, technical support and any other e-mail address we can find suggesting that their Legal department write a disclaimer that is displayed and must be agreed to when starting the vehicle (like the TomTom software does on my old GPS enabled PDA) to enable video and other features while driving. We should keep writing every day or so. We should include testimonials of why people aren't upgrading to the Z2 or that other systems are being considered because of this lack of functionality.

What do you guys think?

P.S. Even if it didn't work it would still give me great satisfaction to think of the mass of e-mails that they would have to deal with.

wont work

legal would never allow it. period.

it would potentionally cost way too much money

The idea is to let them know it might cost them too much money if they don't (in lost sales). I think it is worth a try. Like I said if nothing else at least the annoyance factor that they'll experience will make up for the annoyance factor that we are experiencing with the lack of functionality.

44 people have viewed this post. If 44 people were e-mailing them on a near daily basis they would have to acknowledge the complaint somehow. Don't forget they are driven by sales of their product which is in turn driven by the satisfaction of their customers.

should have bought the Z1

The idea is to let them know it might cost them too much money if they don't (in lost sales). I think it is worth a try. Like I said if nothing else at least the annoyance factor that they'll experience will make up for the annoyance factor that we are experiencing with the lack of functionality.

 

44 people have viewed this post. If 44 people were e-mailing them on a near daily basis they would have to acknowledge the complaint somehow. Don't forget they are driven by sales of their product which is in turn driven by the satisfaction of their customers.

first of all, pioneer is not losing money at all on this product. In fact they are becoming hard to get a hold of, and a lot of times on backorder.

Secondly do you think that any of those emails will be read? If they are, will it be anyone important or that gives a damn?

first of all, pioneer is not losing money at all on this product. In fact they are becoming hard to get a hold of, and a lot of times on backorder.

 

Secondly do you think that any of those emails will be read? If they are, will it be anyone important or that gives a damn?

Yes they will loose money if customers choose to go with a different unit from a different manufacturer. I didn't know they were hard to get a hold of. I got mine for $1550. I figured that they were plentiful if I could get such a deal.

Yes the e-mails will be read. Alone they won't be read by anyone who cares, but it a massive amount comes in from a group that are "AVIC" enthusiast then there is a better chance that they will sit up and take notice.

I understand that you don't think it will work and don't want to participate and that is fine, but unless you have a real reason why we shouldn't try except that it is likely to fail (which I freely admit), then your input is worthless.

should have bought the Z1

You can always take out the hard drive and load the Z1's files on it and then bypass it like a Z1. That works.

In my opinion, it won't work. I do think after a while the people reading them will get pissed but it's very likely nothing will come of it. Even if 50 people were to read this and participate, do you really think Pioneer will care if they lose 50 customers? They might but considering they sell many thousands of these units in the U.S., it's likely that it won't bother them about the $70K they will lose out on. I know that sounds like a lot of money but it's nothing compared to what they actually make on them.

$70K is based on $1,400 X 50. Assuming Pioneer makes $1400 per unit.

It won't work,even if you have a disclaimer lawyers have ways of getting around them. If one person is killed watching a movie while driving can you image how much it will cost them if sued. Now multiply that one by thousands. It could cost them hundreds of millions. I understand what you are saying and thats cool but in today's society you have to look at it at a legal standpoint.

This maybe a stupid question but why are stand alone units like Garmin and Tom Toms, etc. allowed to enter NAV info while driving? These companies aren't subject to any laws or standards that car OEM and factory NAV's are. Or am I missing something?

In my opinion, it won't work. I do think after a while the people reading them will get pissed but it's very likely nothing will come of it. Even if 50 people were to read this and participate, do you really think Pioneer will care if they lose 50 customers? They might but considering they sell many thousands of these units in the U.S., it's likely that it won't bother them about the $70K they will lose out on. I know that sounds like a lot of money but it's nothing compared to what they actually make on them.

 

$70K is based on $1,400 X 50. Assuming Pioneer makes $1400 per unit.

Every customer that a business receives a complaint from can represent X number of customers that they are not being notified by about their dissatisfaction. Either way, your point is taken, without numbers behind this complaining, Pioneer will do nothing about it.

This maybe a stupid question but why are stand alone units like Garmin and Tom Toms, etc. allowed to enter NAV info while driving? These companies aren't subject to any laws or standards that car OEM and factory NAV's are. Or am I missing something?

That was my point, that for Pioneer this is not legally and financially impossible (other companies are doing it). I feel that they don't think it is that big of an issue for their customers. My goal here was to organize some people to inform Pioneer that this is a big issue for us and we would like it fixed. I'm not advocating silly harassing e-mails. Just that we get everyone to let Pioneer know that they are not pleased about this and what they are considering as a result.

should have bought the Z1

 

You can always take out the hard drive and load the Z1's files on it and then bypass it like a Z1. That works.

Does that mean we have determined the bypass is completely software based? If so surely unlocking the drive and finding it somewhere in the software and then producing an "update" is in the future for this forum.

Come on computer whizzes

I feel that they don't think it is that big of an issue for their customers.

Well, look at it this way. They do know that attempts to bypass their units are made as soon as a new model is released. When we find the bypass, they are aware of it; or did you think they don't know about this website? Then when the next year's model is released, the same bypass no longer works (in some cases). We've been finding the bypass ever since the AVIC-N1 and it has changed almost every time the new model came out. I think they do know it's that big of an issue to us if we're so persistent model after model. They're just trying to cover their asses; that's why they keep changing it.

i think the z2's were flying off the shelf because nobody knew it didnt have a bypass yet. we sold 4 or 5 when they first came out, and since march havent sold ANY!! we are selling kenwood, eclipse, or even valor instead. Also, one of our distributors said that after about 6 months or so from a product release, they get weird "anonomous" faxes on how to do the bypasses. I wonder who they are from?? Pioneer? I think yes.

Let me put it to you this way:

6 weeks ago I attended Pioneer Tech training on new products at my local distributor. They had 40 sales/installers there, our Regional Pioneer Product Specialist, the Pioneer Western Zone Technical Specialist, and the Regional Pioneer sales rep.

They were showing the entire new Pioneer lineup, but then focused on NAV. The big thing for them was the new D3, a low price point, DVD capable, and Ipod ready. We touched briefly on Z2 and updated mapping features, but that was about it.

After the presentation, we got into some conversations, and came to find out, that most of these guys had new Z2 prototypes in their company vehicles, and even THEY were working with Pioneer Tech in California to get the bypasses working again. These guys are routinely given new units and new software updates, and were telling me they have Pioneer Tech pull their hard drives and copy songs over, etc.

BUT, none of them were able to pull over data from Z1 hard drives onto Z2 platforms. They had to completely rebuild their libraries again. All of this lockout stuff is done in Japan when the units are made, and even the American Tech Support guys don't have the info yet. I think they try and figure it out in their labs just like we all do.

So, just to let you know there are insiders trying to get this done as well, and the word will eventually get out to all of you, when they can figure it out.

There will NEVER be any legal way that Pioneer will do this for us. The cost of losing 100 sales is negligible compared to ONE lawsuit for someone getting in an accident while watching video in America. Pioneer also makes factory units for Ford/Lincoln now, so they are buiilding to even tighter restrictions for being within the law.

Blame your own litigous friends and neighbors for it. If your buddy runs over your 10-year old little sister riding her bike, and maims her, because he's watching Spiderman whilst driving down the road, how would you feel? You'd probably want to sue for money to make her life easier, but you can't go get your buddy for cash, can't get GM for building his Cavalier, can't go after Best Buy for installing it, but you can go after Pioneer for making the DVD watching possible in the first place. That's how our society now works, that's how lawyers get paid.

Well said

folks the issue is that playing DVD's in the front is not legal in most states. That is why they lock it down. If you look at the Ford Navs they are made by pioneer but have no DVD and all functions work. So that is why Pioneer will not allow a bypass for the unit. So why not at least allow the nav functions to work, I think its because they are tied in together some how.

Not exactly true, they make SOME of the Ford/Lincoln models, some are still made by Eclipse, some are still made by Visteon.

However ALL navs have a lockout where you cannot enter in a destination or address while driving. Vehicle must be parked and parking brake on in order to do those functions. So basically they use the same lockdown as the aftermarket DVD units.

Unless it has one of the new voice activated units like the AVIC Z2. Ford has the Expedition and Lincoln Navigator so far as the only ones in their line with voice activation, with which you can verbally input addresses and phone numbers while driving, not taking your eyes of the road.

Well said

Yes, very well put... almost a month after the issue was dropped

I have a 07 expedition and it has the Nav and I can enter adress while driving.... no lock out... However I have a 06 F150 that has the Z1 and I still like it better.... only thing is the update expedition has my street address on it Z1 does not...

Here's my 2 cents...

Like all things, there will be some way of circumvent the "protection". Game consoles, either cracked or going to be cracket. Same with Z2. There is someone out there who is good w/ tools and soon there will be one plug in device (just like the flasher for Z1) that will let us enjoy Video on the go. Just wait.

Here's my 2 cents...

 

Like all things, there will be some way of circumvent the "protection". Game consoles, either cracked or going to be cracket. Same with Z2. There is someone out there who is good w/ tools and soon there will be one plug in device (just like the flasher for Z1) that will let us enjoy Video on the go. Just wait.

Ehh, hacking game consoles have far better rewards than hacking a Z2. You save yourself probably over 1k$ getting burnt games, where as you only get to watch a DVD/enter addresses with the Z2. Plus, game consoles are by far more ubiquitous.

On a side note, that T guy seems to have mysterious disappeared after yet another huge blunder.

There will NEVER be any legal way that Pioneer will do this for us.

It is NOT against the law anywhere in the U.S. to have navigation controls active while driving!! There is no legal issue for Pioneer!

DVD is different. And I have no problem with them locking that out of the head unit while in motion. But the loss of navigation while in motion is ridiculous. There are a lot of manufacturers that allow that straight from the factory. Why not Pioneer??

Word, Alot of OEM Navi's allow address searches while in motion, I.E. Acura.....

DVD movies is another issue. I wouldnt mind if they made the Z2 allow for addresses searches but blocked DVD movies, I hardly use the DVD player.