whoopidoo2 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm probably going to get flamed. Whatever. When building software, there are 3 components. You can break them down further, but these are the basics. After spending months drawing up the loong looong list of what you WANT to have in your product, and the idea of getting to Market by a certain date, you then have to face the realities of: #1 - Cost #2 - Features (plus reliability) #3 - Time That one feature harder to code than expected? Too buggy or doesn't pass an extensive test review? Well, either cut it entirely, or add money (pay more developers) and time. Or if you think you can fix it, just not by market date, delay it for a service pack/flash update. Realize you need to add/change features? Going to cost more money to pay the developers, or extend the time to market - maybe by months meaning you miss the Christmas release where the bean counters had made plans to show a profit. Developers running behind because you set unrealistic expectations and are going to miss the time to market? Either pay more developers, take some hits on test/quality, or start cutting non-essential (or maybe essential) features. You can play this game all day long, but those are the 3 realities of building software, be it for your computer or your car. No software is, or will ever be, perfect, especially on it's first time out the door. It's too farking expensive to make it so. Link to post Share on other sites
CatchMeIfYouCan631 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't see why you'd get flamed, that makes perfect sense. And Pioneer also released not one, but two updates to correct the probems as best as they can to date. The unit is now in a position where it functions and the features work. Back months ago when it released there was a lot wrong with it, but not now. Now the majority of the F series owners are satisfied, especially the Pre-update owners. I've even read posts where members regret going Kenwood. Point is YOU WILL NOT WIN ANY KIND OF LAWSUIT AGAINST PIONEER. Link to post Share on other sites
tacomaboy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't see why you'd get flamed, that makes perfect sense. And Pioneer also released not one, but two updates to correct the probems as best as they can to date. The unit is now in a position where it functions and the features work. Back months ago when it released there was a lot wrong with it, but not now. Now the majority of the F series owners are satisfied, especially the Pre-update owners. I've even read posts where members regret going Kenwood. Point is YOU WILL NOT WIN ANY KIND OF LAWSUIT AGAINST PIONEER. I think its kind of futile to argue this here, but those of you who insist that one cannot sue Pioneer may not have familiarity with a class action lawsuit. Take a look at the Sprint class action lawsuit going on right now over the ETF. I joined that suit. I don't expect to make any moeny, or maybe a few bucks (hardly what I spend in 2 weeks on my Sprint bill). But the point is that Sprint has been sent a clear message. I would not expect to make any money off of a class action lawsuit against Pioneer. I would be lucky to get 50 bucks compensation, much less have my money back. A class action attorney would get a percentage of any damages awarded to the plaintiffs, so often the attorneys clients do not pay out of pocket. And I think there are very good grounds for a law suit. I could simply play the videos presented by Pioneer and then record a video of me trying to use my system (and others), and it is pretty obvious there is significant disparity between what was advertised, and what was sold. Having said all this, I suspect we wont have a class action lawsuit since there are not a great many customers who purchased the system, and hence not enough complaints to make it worth while. Link to post Share on other sites
tacomaboy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 http://law.freeadvice.com/litigation/cl ... awsuit.htm Look at this - if a law suit can be filed over this, certainly the complaints about the AVIC -F series would hold water: http://www.zimmreed.com/lifetime-fitness-lawsuit.htm Link to post Share on other sites
mastrch Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yes good devices exist. I have read VERY GOOD reviews of the Clarion MAX983HD and the JVC KW NX 7000. The First one is more expensive, the latter one cheaper. P.S. to whoopidoo2,Your analysis is quite right. Translate this to business terms and you get: I want to launch a new product. And want to make a LOT of money. Now, how can I do that? Let me think, keep costs low, calculate how many programmers and how long you can put the on the job for that budget, without asking them if it is realistic. Then sell your product at high prices, make good money and aspecially do not listen to your customers' complaints. To Dianebrat: why are you taking these threads THIS personal?? I just said that - referring to myself - if you use the device in an intesive way, it drives you crazy. Changes in navigation instruction volumes all the time while driving in dense traffic, muted phone calls all the time when having important business related phone calls. And so on. If you just listen to music and use navigation to your parent's house (a 5km ride you have done countless times), then indeed maybe you will be happy with the device. Note that I'm overstating everything to illustratie my point. So don't think I'm talking about you personally again here, this is a general statement... I don't know how intesively (or not) you use the device so I don't make any statement whatsoever as to that. You - as many other users including myself - probably feel your are an important and intensive user anyway, whatever usage you have of the device. Dear Diane, breath in deeply, breaath out fully, count to ten slowly, relax and don't feel offended this quickly in life, you will be much happier. Link to post Share on other sites
caveman666 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 All I can say is WOW! Americans sure love to sue. I love my f90 and have encountered no problems yet. I guess I'll have to read more to find them. No one forced you to buy it. Move on with your life. Go buy another brand and you'll go through the same thing I'm sure. Some people can't be pleased. Link to post Share on other sites
mastrch Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I agree with Tacomaboy, In then end it is more the priciple than the money that counts. Pioneer definitely will think twice in the future before launching an unfinished product. And yes, no one forced me to buy it, only thing is that I didn't get the decvice I thought I was buying and I would never have bought it if I was informed of the bug and problems. In the end us, customers, will gain a lot from it. At least than you can expect a product to - more or less - meet the commercials. Producers will always go one step further if we don't react. WHERE WILL IT END??? Link to post Share on other sites
whoopidoo2 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 P.S. to whoopidoo2,Your analysis is quite right. Translate this to business terms and you get: I want to launch a new product. And want to make a LOT of money. Now, how can I do that? Let me think, keep costs low, calculate how many programmers and how long you can put the on the job for that budget, without asking them if it is realistic. Then sell your product at high prices, make good money and aspecially do not listen to your customers' complaints. Sort of. A developer (or more likely, developers managers) may say it will take an estimated X amount of time to say....integrate IPOD *perfectly* with an F90. Then Ipod goes and updates to Version 6 or releases a new (very popular) device. Whoops. Start over. Still have to watch that clock and count the dollars. Now all of a sudden the Ipod doesn't pause when a call comes in. Should that stop shipping the product? Nope. Won't happen. I'm making that up, but you see the point. As for listening to customer's complaints - no, that's a key part as well. Part of the cost involved isn't just for building the product initially, but also for planning and paying for the software updates that will obviously be needed and for paying for support and warranty personnel. For Pioneer, this also includes hardware failures. This is a great reason for putting Beta products - like Microsoft does - on the market to test it with as many people as possible. For Microsoft, I would suspect it costs them very little comparitively to get bugs submitted for review on a Beta product that hundreds of thousands or millions of people downloaded for free, when compared to the support costs of taking the thousands of phone calls to fix it after it goes to market. Support costs for any business are a losing proposition. A little harder to beta test car audio than Windows, however. Unfortunate. Personally, if Pioneer put out a 2.1 update to fix a few (minor, given the scope) issues, I'd be super pleased. Any issues I have with the unit are pretty minor, and for the price I paid I definitely think I got my money's worth - especially when compared to the POS factory radio that was in my vehicle when I started. Sorry for the long rant. Link to post Share on other sites
S4 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Or just sell your unit and buy something "better". Problem solved. Link to post Share on other sites
tacomaboy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 All I can say is WOW! Americans sure love to sue. I love my f90 and have encountered no problems yet. I guess I'll have to read more to find them. No one forced you to buy it. Move on with your life. Go buy another brand and you'll go through the same thing I'm sure. Some people can't be pleased. I am Amercian and I have never sued anyone, nor do I like the idea. Pioneer advertised a great product, I paid 1000 bucks for it, and it turned out to be terrible. How does that make me the bad guy for wanting A: My money back, or B: A good product? Link to post Share on other sites
tacomaboy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Or just sell your unit and buy something "better". Problem solved. Will you cover the 600 or so dollars I will lose by selling it? If so then no problem! Link to post Share on other sites
tacomaboy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I agree with Tacomaboy, In then end it is more the priciple than the money that counts. Pioneer definitely will think twice in the future before launching an unfinished product. And yes, no one forced me to buy it, only thing is that I didn't get the decvice I thought I was buying and I would never have bought it if I was informed of the bug and problems. In the end us, customers, will gain a lot from it. At least than you can expect a product to - more or less - meet the commercials. Producers will always go one step further if we don't react. WHERE WILL IT END??? Bingo. Link to post Share on other sites
MadMonkey Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I would like to add a second analogy to this thread that I believe hits the nail on the head. For all of you that believe that second best or quirky bugs are O.K. ask yourself this question. If you bought a brand new car that cost you $45,000.00 and this Pioneer head unit was installed as a factory add on, would you still except the substandard operation of the product? I doubt it. You would be the first people in line at the service department within days of buying the car. Want to know why most nav. systems in new cars work flawlessly? Because the car manufactures would not accept second best and in a push comes to shove situation with a supplier they would not hesitate to sue them, and/or withhold payment. How fast would Pioneer get there act together if you were allowed to test drive the unit for 90 days before you had to actually pay for it? As a manufacture and service company, we don’t accept second best from our suppliers. Every piece of raw material we get for a project is inspected. If it does not meet our requirements it’s sent back. Why? Because if we use it we risk failure in the finished work that could amount to millions of dollars in damages. The issue for a lot of you that are disappointed with the product is not just the money you spent. Yes $500.00 - $750.00 for something that should work out of the box is a lot of money. It’s the fact that you have to remove the item from your dash, (time and possibly money) find a replacement, (more time and money). Like I said earlier if this product was attached to a more expensive purchase 99% of you that currently except the product for what it is would be demanding satisfaction. The problem is your just willing to except second best. Link to post Share on other sites
whoopidoo2 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 At least than you can expect a product to - more or less - meet the commercials. Producers will always go one step further if we don't react. WHERE WILL IT END??? With all due respect, commercials never match up, and never have. When's the last time a beer commercial worked out they way it was shown? Will an alarm system really save your home? Shoes make you run faster? Perfume get you laid? I remember not long back that Cingular had a billboard that said "Fewest dropped calls." If that doesn't tell you they are in a "who sucks less" industry nothing does. All companies exaggerate ads. You'll never get past a judge showing them a youtube video with sparks coming off the radio showing what a great night the guy had with his new F90BT and have him think you were expecting the same. Link to post Share on other sites
dianebrat Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 All I can say is WOW! Americans sure love to sue. I love my f90 and have encountered no problems yet. I guess I'll have to read more to find them. No one forced you to buy it. Move on with your life. Go buy another brand and you'll go through the same thing I'm sure. Some people can't be pleased. Yup, I don't understand them either, I'm with you 100% caveman! Link to post Share on other sites
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