ILL wire pulsed or not? (from bluetooth thread)

[niteone]

lol, he's confused again. lol

[edrock200]

useless post? least I"m not confused about illumination wire being a variable voltage vrs. +12 and ground and then passing it on as fact. geeze you call me the lame one for knowing the difference. Go back to school learn what your doing then you can talk sh!t clown.

 

Please no one make the mistake that the illumination wire is not a solid +12 or - ground. Even In a pulsed system. Its mis info like this that will cause problems. Again if you mis inform, I will correct you if I know the facts, otherwise you wont hear from me. take it personally if you want, like I said it makes me none.

 

p.s. I have put 700 miles or so on my z1 after this update (man. date of 7/06) and the z1 functions as it did prior to the update with the bypass of the two wires to ground. I doubt anything is done to newER manufactured units in regards to the bypass.

 

Do you have A lunch or B lunch?

 

Err...Did I call your post useless? I'm not sure what I said that instigated the "clown" remark nor what 'misinformation" I've given out. You keep spewing "facts" about pulsed and non-pulsed without actually "educating" us on what it is that I'm so wrong about. You've back-peddled once again on teh whole "new car" thing. Are you telling me an electrical system on an '02 sequoia is significantly different than an '06? LOL, dude, STOP MESSING WITH ELECTRONICS. Your dangerous.

 

Seriously, grow up. You're clearly a young boy so I kind of understand your lack of self control and poor word choices. Let me phrase this so you can understand: I "ain't" trying to dis you "homie" but you are causing more harm than good in this thread.

 

Go ahead and flame away and call me names, I chose to respect the members of this thread and bow out of this silly debate so I will no longer respond to your childish remarks.

 

To all other members in this thread: My apologies for the hijack and silliness of "tillithz" which I apparently instigated. Please don't let this dumb debate deter you from providing input.

[tillithz]

edrock200 your an idiot, no one said your car wasnt new BECAUSE IT WAS DIFFERENT then such and such year, I said it wasnt new becuase IT AINT NEW. Its a 2002 get over yourself dumb ass. back peddling nothing! for christ sake you dont see a 2002 as a new vehicle do you ?

 

as far as you bowing out, you aint bowed out shit. You still going on with it and cant even admit that you stated

"and the avic z1 wants to either see 12v or nothing, it doesn't like pulsed circuits and I've confirmed this in my 02 sequoia." and thats wrong! It can see a variable, which the ILL. wire is typically. We arent talking about the parking lights.

 

uhh dumb ass you can connect your variable illumination that IS NOT PULSED to the z1 also. uhh duh. you admit that theres one in your sequoia even, so whos back peddling now youngster? You are you idiot. get mecp cert. or study some more before you play with the big boys. Besides the "lame" response was to nutone err niteone or whever. But apparently you felt insulted as if it was directed to you, feeling guilty it seems huh. lol

 

So, to sum up for your slow ass...(edrock200)

 

1. illumination wire is not only/always pulsed, in fact it has a variable voltage reading to illuminate gradually.

 

2. z1 can be connect to the illumination wire when it is a variable wire.

 

3. a 2002 vehicle IS NOT new anymore, especially if you have been driving it since you bought it. Get over yourself.

 

4. You arent respecting anyone with your posts that are just as long as mine, bitching about how you magically schooled someone, when you didnt, this is a real world, dont get it confused with the world in your head.

[ducatiboy]

Ok, that's it, I'm pulling the car over!

 

1. illumination wire is not only/always pulsed, in fact it has a variable voltage reading to illuminate gradually.

 

2. z1 can be connect to the illumination wire when it is a variable wire.

 

not to fuel any flame wars here, but variable voltage where it's a steady voltage hasn't been used in cars that I know of for years. I think my 79 mustang had it, maybe even in to the 80's. But I'm sure they don't do it now. That is so wasteful, and expensive in terms of parts and current and heat, and with the cheap uProcessors these days, I highly doubt anyone would do such a thing on a variable brightness system.

 

I don't know if you tested this in your truck, but the only way to know for sure is to put that line on a scope and test it. I'll bet any 2000+ car is pulse width modulated for the dimmer and any "variable voltage" ILL wire. You can do a simple test by reading that line with an AC volt meter, if you get any AC volts it's pulsed.

 

The Z1 can be hooked to a constant 12V on ILL wire or a pulsed one. I originally did some tests with this when I was doing my circuit, cause I was reading pulses and originally passing them through, but the Z1 would take pulses as ILL ON, but I don't remember exactly the duty cycle it would handle but it would surprise you.

 

I did never test it on a DC lower voltage level, so I don't know what that would take, depending on the sense circuit it could be as low as 0.6 V over ground, but I doubt it would be that low.

 

now all of you are heading the fast way to a smart bottom if you don't cut it out!

 

When I get time, I'm splitting the bickering away from the info of this main thread cause it's a little hijacked and the real bluetooth info is getting drowned out.

[tillithz]

actually a Potentiometer is very inexpensive and efficient. No?

 

 

 

and would you be so kind as to read this:

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-hpBcBonWWPY/tech/kb31.html

 

crutchfield to boot.

 

 

please note #4

 

"Turn on your parking lights and test the remaining wires.

This should reveal one (or two) wires now reading 12 volts. If you find two, see which one varies voltage when you adjust the dash light dimmer. "

 

does this help any?

 

if not, check this out to

 

http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/for ... 74637&PN=1

and note the third paragraph.

 

and if that isnt enough

 

http://www.mustangforums.com/m_1222508/tm.htm

regarding an 89 mustang. "3.) The dimmer wire will have no voltage with the lights off, and will vary between 8-14v with the lights on, depending on how bright the dash lighting is. It is not the one labeled ground."

 

and

http://www.ca.dsm.org/SoundAdvice/article3.html

search for dimmer and youll find

"Turn the headlights on and start probing again but with each attempt turn the dash dimmer knob. You'll know when you've found the right one because the voltage reading will VARY when you turn the dimmer knob. "

 

another from the12volt.com

http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/for ... 85518&PN=1

 

I dont think its necessary to get any more links to different site stating that the dimmer is variable, its NOT A.C. but D.C. (of course there may be a few exceptions like the canbus mentioned earlier, I dont know that system at all)

 

So, now I am lost completely how this got so off topic and the ignorance has been able to run a muck for so long. Whoever is welcome to delete whatever posts necessary, and likely this will be the first to go since it clearly shows point # 1 that the illumination/dimmer (not parking lights) is what Ive been saying it is since the begining.

[ducatiboy]

I can't speak for JasonH, but I could care less about bickering. You guys can flame back and fourth till the cows come home (mooooo). Just keep it out of IMPORTANT threads. That bluetooth thread is very important and no one will want to wade through this bickering while trying to find out about the bluetooth update CD. I even yanked out the MP3 on DVD is hardware or software.

 

Lets keep the bickering in here please. Or else I'll send you to your room!

 

actually a Potentiometer is very inexpensive and efficient. No?

 

No! Cheap yah. But it's a mechanically variable resistor. Resistors reduce the voltage, but where does that voltage go? Heat. That's what I meant by not efficient. The amount of dimming gets burned off as heat. When you pulse the ILL signal the dimming just happens, there is no "wasted" electricity (so to speak).

 

"Ordinary potentiometers are rarely used to control anything of significant power (even lighting) directly due to resistive losses" from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiome ... _component

 

The AC that people are talking about or Pulsed is Pulse Width Modulation.

 

"These rather simple types of dimmers can be effectively used with inert (or relatively slow reacting) light sources such as incandescent lamps, for example, for which the additional modulation in supplied electrical energy which is caused by the dimmer causes only negligible additional fluctuations in the emitted light."

 

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-widt ... r_delivery

 

On a DC voltmeter, this PWM will look like a fixed voltage that is variable due to the built in averaging in most meters. If you measure the ILL signal and you don't get 12V (or what ever the main voltage is when the car is running) switch it to AC volts and see if you measure anything, if you see 0V AC then it's a fixed DC voltage. If you measure anything (and depending on the meter, a square wave might mess up the measurement some) it's pulsed. I can't say what every meter will see a square wave and show you. Most are anticipating a sine wave like your AC power in your house. But I believe they will all register something if it sees this square wave.

 

That being said, I don't know much about car wiring from car to car to car. I'm not an installer and don't know what car companies are doing. Someone with experience installing and testing electrical systems are much better at saying what is and what is not available in car's electrical systems.

 

Someone might go out and test this theory and say that I'm wrong. I could be. There could be cars that don't do this and use a DC voltage for dimming. My guess is they are just smoothing the pulsed signal. But I DON'T KNOW what car companies do. Some might still use DC voltage levels. But I'm guessing most don't, if not all don't. But that's just cause I wouldn't do it that way. I'm taking my ideas and figuring that car companies are smarter than I and are doing it the best way. I don't see how creating a flat DC voltage for their ILL or Dimmer wires would be better, but they might have come up with something. So some vehicles might have it. But at the moment, I would doubt it. I could be wrong! I have been known to be wrong from time to time

 

My guess is that all those links you provided glossed over what is actually happening and gave people something easy for them to grasp. 99.9% of installers don't care how the dimming happens from car to car, but just that it does and they know how to find that wire. And since most people who read 8V on an ILL wire will see that as dimmed lights and move on. While it's possible for that to be a DC voltage, I can't imaging they do that any more. But most people won't go into how PWM works cause most people don't care. That's my guess as to why many sources gloss over the nitty gritty, not cause they don't know but they are writing for an audience and that audience won't get it and it will just create confusion. I have to force myself to change what I post cause it causes me issues and questions which I have to then expand upon (not here, but via email on my web site and ebay auctions).

 

I'm not taking sides or I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right. I don't know or care. Honestly I just briefly scanned over these posts, enough to get an idea of the conversations and that's it. I'm just trying to give out my knowledge if anyone wants it. Which is what everyone else is trying to do here as well.

 

Flame away, I have my asbestos under ware on!

[tillithz]

from the link you posted right at the top, ducatiboy at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiome ... _component

 

"If all three terminals are used, it can act as a variable voltage divider."

 

heres a pic for you all, a dimmer switch out of a 96 acura integra:

 

 

Notice the three terminals? and Heat shield? this is a Petentionmeter, or Pot for short.

 

I didnt have any other dimmer switches laying around to open up and picture for you but, this should put things to rest no?

 

And I just thought of something, an l.e.d. is NOT ac, you cant connect it bacwards, Polarity is very important. unless you want it to BLINK

 

see what it says here on l.e.d's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode

 

LEDs can be operated on an Alternating current voltage, but they will only light with positive voltage, causing the LED to turn on and off at the frequency of the AC supply. my lights dont blink, do yours?

[ducatiboy]

It's not alternating current it's pulsed width modulated. It's 12V for a short time and 0V for a short time. Not AC. Everything you just said is correct.

 

Older cars used to use pots. I didn't know when they stopped. Yes, it could have been into the 90's, which by your picture is. Yes, you found a car with a pot. If you took them out of older cars, you would see they are all pots.

 

What I said was that modern cars (and I don't know when they switched or if they all did) are now using pulse width modulation. More and more are using it, because the dimming is not burned off as heat. You can just have a fet turn on and off really fast, you won't see any flickering cause it's so fast and it's just on and off, no resistance to waste voltage as heat.

 

Yes, LED's will only light with current flowing one way. We are not talking about AC. Just 12V for a short time and 0V for a short time. If it's 12V for 1/1000 second and then 0V for 1/1000 second, you will get 50% brightness and it will flash of flicker, but the human eye can't see 24 frames per second as movies are. you can't see 1/1000 second. Actually the device doesn't usually react that fast. You just get that much less brightness.

 

We are talking about 1Khz, not 1Hz, you would see 1hz.

 

What I'm saying is look at your ILL line (or dimmer), measure it. If it says less than 12V on a volt meter, switch it to AC Volts, if it reads any voltage it's pulse width modulated. If it's 0V AC then it's a pot.

 

Historically, they were all pots. More recently more and more cars use PWM. I don't know when they switched over and I don't know how many do. Just try it and you will know for sure. If you have access to an oscilloscope, you can test it and watch the signal.

 

Don't give up and go away, test some. Look at that signal on AC volt meter.

[tillithz]

welp, reading on pwm, it then stands to reason that

 

a) it would be a dc signal and NOT a.c. as first eluded to.

 

The pwm supplies the voltage equal to the full value... ie 12 volts or 8 volts, but it adjusts the TIME involved for which it is supplied, doing in essence an average, 1 second of 12 volts and 1 second of 0 volts would be an average of 6 volts for that 2 second period. This is the "pulsed" part

 

c) only slightly primative pwm circuits would be ideal for a head unit that looks for volatage to dim or brighten but does not take in account the time average stated above. The reason is because more advanced pwm circuits that actually calculate the set high voltage and low voltage (due to a load like an l.e.d or light bulb) would not detect a high load or low load and hence would not be able to pulse. Because the pwm works in the way of once it puts out the desired voltage (the high voltage) it monitors that and turns off, then once it sees it hits 0 volts (the low voltage) it turns back on, all the while its doing this so fast that the human eye is unable to see this on off timing.

 

BUT, and this is the big BUT.... There would still be a load on the vehicles dimmer that even if it was a pwm circuit would be able to function and pulse fine. This is known because when you change your radio for say a Avic-z1 You dont typically change ALL OF THE INTERIOR LIGHTING too, like the instrument cluster.

 

So even if you do have a pwm, that would not effect the aftermarket unit that should be able to read the wire anyways because there is still a load that the pwm sees to function, only its slightly less since the original radio no longer is connected that has lights in it. This would ONLY adjust the timing of the pwm, nothing else with regard to the pwm.

 

And thats still not taking in consideration that the lights in the after market head unit are being controlled by the hu and using the dimmer wire as a singal only or if it actually puts a load on the dimmer wire when reading it, to power the lighting within itself, and if that load is close to the replaced hu load.

 

I believe with experience with the avic units that it doesnt just "look" at the dimmer for a signal, it actualy puts a load on it to light the lights that the avic unit has.

 

Also, I wanted to correct something I stated, not sure if in pm or if here, but there are l.e.d's that can be purchased to replace l.e.d's used in the car for instrument lighting, I mentioned that they could be around 150 mA, but after some reading I have found that this year there are l.e.d's made that only require 20 mA and put out a high amount of light so, You could theoretically light everything with NO MORE then 1 amp

 

So,

YES the dimmer is DIRECT CURRENT and not a.c.

YES technically its pulsed, but can function on a NON pulsed rather simply.

NO, the z1 should not interfere with a pulsed type of dimmer and actually should be able to run just fine connected directly to this wire.

NO, the ductiboy circuit should not be necessary for use of the dimmer switch, with the current electronic circuits available in most cars and most new cars even.

[ducatiboy]

tillithz, now you are starting to see what I was talking about. Again, I'm not saying you were wrong to say that some cars have the pot's or more appropriate rheostats, but more and more are moving away since you won't need any heat sink for a PWM.

 

c) only slightly primative pwm circuits would be ideal for a head unit that looks for volatage to dim or brighten but does not take in account the time average stated above. The reason is because more advanced pwm circuits that actually calculate the set high voltage and low voltage (due to a load like an l.e.d or light bulb) would not detect a high load or low load and hence would not be able to pulse. Because the pwm works in the way of once it puts out the desired voltage (the high voltage) it monitors that and turns off, then once it sees it hits 0 volts (the low voltage) it turns back on, all the while its doing this so fast that the human eye is unable to see this on off timing.

 

I think you might be confused on how fancy the PWM's are in cars. They don't calculate load. Actually (not to back pedal here) but the knob is still a pot. I would guess that almost any variable knob in the world is a pot. But instead of having all the current flow through the knob itself it's just a variable resistance that controls a PWM chip and that just varies the duty cycle of a FET. So the load is not handled by the knob, but the FET. With such a low on resistance and fast switching they would create such little heat. Most don't measure the "load" of the interior lights to figure out a dimmer. They set it up at the factory with good settings.

 

BUT, and this is the big BUT.... There would still be a load on the vehicles dimmer that even if it was a pwm circuit would be able to function and pulse fine. This is known because when you change your radio for say a Avic-z1 You dont typically change ALL OF THE INTERIOR LIGHTING too, like the instrument cluster.

 

Well the point is to have the load flow through the switcher not through the dimmer knob. Again, because I don't dumb down my information like Crutchfield or some other posts on other sites... since the dimmer knob is a pot, it is a load and current will flow through it. BUT and this is the big BUT (not my wife's big but) where does the current for the lights actually flow through. The point of a PWM is that it doesn't flow through the dimmer knob (pot) itself. And there is only heat built up in the transition of on to off, and that's so fast that there isn't that much heat, so the parts can be smaller (and cheaper).

 

I had an 87 Mustang GT and the did use a rheostat in the dimmer knob and it would heat up so much that if you used the fog lights and head lights, it would heat up the switch assembly so much it's internal circuit breaker would go off and your head lights would just switch off for no reason randomly. Heat in a switch assembly is bad.

 

So even if you do have a pwm, that would not effect the aftermarket unit that should be able to read the wire anyways because there is still a load that the pwm sees to function, only its slightly less since the original radio no longer is connected that has lights in it. This would ONLY adjust the timing of the pwm, nothing else with regard to the pwm.

 

And thats still not taking in consideration that the lights in the after market head unit are being controlled by the hu and using the dimmer wire as a singal only or if it actually puts a load on the dimmer wire when reading it, to power the lighting within itself, and if that load is close to the replaced hu load.

 

They aren't that smart, they just figure out a circuit before the car is designed that the dimmer knob is going to produce a duty cycle of between 50% and 80% and that will look good in the car. They don't care how you will change the lights and current they draw, it's just on and off. There is no load calculator for how the PWM works.

 

I believe with experience with the avic units that it doesnt just "look" at the dimmer for a signal, it actualy puts a load on it to light the lights that the avic unit has.

 

Well everything puts a load on everything else, but with my circuit or the Z1, the load it uses to sense the ILL state is so low compared to the lights themselves the value is considered 0 in any calculation.

 

Sort of when you think of heat built up in a PWM circuit. When it's on the resistance is so close to 0 you can consider it 0. No heat. When it's off, the resistance is infinite, so no current and no heat. It's when it switches that you have to watch, but the % of that is so small that you can pretty much call that 0. Yes there are all loads that you can calculate, but you will go crazy trying to figure out what the current/heat produces for 0.000001% of the time at 6ohms... etc... it's so close to 0, you just forget it.

 

Also, I wanted to correct something I stated, not sure if in pm or if here, but there are l.e.d's that can be purchased to replace l.e.d's used in the car for instrument lighting, I mentioned that they could be around 150 mA, but after some reading I have found that this year there are l.e.d's made that only require 20 mA and put out a high amount of light so, You could theoretically light everything with NO MORE then 1 amp

 

Yah, I wasn't going to go down that road. But yes, you can get quite a bit of light out of 20mA these days. And even so, 1 amp is quite a bit. I guess it depends on the application. If 20mA flowed through your body it would stop your heat and kill you.

 

 

So,

YES the dimmer is DIRECT CURRENT and not a.c.

YES technically its pulsed, but can function on a NON pulsed rather simply.

NO, the z1 should not interfere with a pulsed type of dimmer and actually should be able to run just fine connected directly to this wire.

 

Yep, you got it!

 

NO, the ductiboy circuit should not be necessary for use of the dimmer switch, with the current electronic circuits available in most cars and most new cars even.

 

While it should. I don't remember the duty cycle it will accept. My circuit will accept as low as a 30% duty cycle averaged over 1/4 second. If that's less than the Z1 will take, it might be useful. But I doubt anyone would need my circuit to hook the Z1 to a PWM signal.

 

 

I think my real point of this was that:

 

An ILL wire I believe should be just 12V when the lights are on and 0V when the lights are off. If it's anything in between, I guess it should be called a positive dimmer wire.

 

BUT if you measure "8V" with your nice new digital multimeter, it might be a constant 8V or it might be a pulsed 12V-0V signal and your meter is averaging it and telling you 8V.

 

I guess it doesn't matter how it makes the 8V, either through a variable resistance (burning off the rest of the voltage as wasted heat) or through a PWM circuit, but it makes a lower average voltage for the interior lights to dim.

 

What I was saying is that if it's a modern car and you get less than 12V on your ILL or Dimmer lines, switch to AC Volts and see if you get any voltage measured. If you do it's a pulsed signal (more and more common in newer cars) if you get 0V AC then it's a constant lower voltage (more common in older cars).

 

Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of hooking up stuff. But it's what is happening behind the scenes. Most people will hook it up to whatever and if it "works" they don't care. But that's what is going on.

[tillithz]

what its doing, and the result are very very different. Because this whole thing came about because of some mis communication of what the illumination wire does... and its simple because of the such fast switching it really doesnt matter that it is a pwm or not. I say this because, if your hu or whatever is so primative not to have a pwm sense built in, then it likely wouldnt be able to sense fast enough this switching that is going on. It would simply "take the average" by default.

 

And again, the measurement (in my case) is going to be a measurement between ground that is what most meters will read since it switches so quickly. AND it can still be hooked up with the pwm removed, and resistance to ground put into its place for the entire circuit, this will allow you to control it very much the same, but with more heat lost.

 

its really a moot point that it is a pwm or pot type, cuz honestly, I really doubt the z1 is unable to "sense" this, and if it is I doubt that it can sense such a quick on off then. I know that the dimmer works fine with a avic-n3 and a Honda Accord 2006 because I have installed this myself and used the dimmer that way. Surely pioneer has accounted for this throughout their automotive product line.

[ducatiboy]

Yep, that was my point too. I was (and some others were) saying that it was a pulsed wire. But in the end it doesn't really matter. Which is why Crutchfield doesn't go into what is actually happening. It would just confuse the masses. As long as it works the masses don't care. In the end they do pretty much give you the same result.

 

I think that originally the topic was brought up cause there are newer pulsed systems out there... not cause things may or may not work, just that they are different and becoming more common.

[cntrylvr79]

Umm wow. I can't even read all this stuff. Can we all just agree to disagree and leave it at that?