new "flashing" procedure

[ducatiboy]

Well, with all my self doubt due to someone's report that my circuit only works half the time, I decided to rip apart my truck and do some more work on this.

Just so you all know, anyone who has my circuit now, does not need to send it back. I was using the same circuit that I already shipped out and I believe that it's very good.

But just incase my "timing" was just hitting what we needed to get this to work, I decied to sit down with my Z1 and my truck and do a TON of timing experiments cause no one really knows what is needed. Some say 3 flashes, some say 1, some say... blah blah blah....


[b]Well I think I figured out EXACTLY what we need to do. And I wanted to post this in the hopes that people who are manually flashing their lights could try this and verify my findings.[/b]

You DO NOT need to "flash" your lights. You NEED to have the lights go from "ON" to "OFF" during the "Starting up pioneer navigation" screen. This screen:
[url=http://www.sminnick.com/AviatorRadio/IMG_0066.html]http://www.sminnick.com/AviatorRadio/IMG_0066.html[/url]


Try this:

1. get in the car, and turn your lights on (or parking lights on).
2. start the car (or if you don't want the car running, you can do this just by turning the key to "on").
3. wait till you see the "Starting up pioneer navigation" screen, while it's on the screen, turn your lights off.
4. leave your lights off for a minimum of 5 seconds (or so, I didn't time this precisely).

That's it. The ILLUMINATION line has to go from HIGH to LOW during that screen. If while flashing your lights you happen to do that, then that will work too. But the only thing REQUIRED is for your lights to go from on to off while that screen is displayed.


Please try this, I would love to hear more feedback about this.

I'm going to try to time that screen a little better and see if I can get some exact timing on this. You all can say what you want about me, but you can't question my dedication to getting this working as best as possible.

There is a slight problem with this setup, in order to make this work, I can take my circuit and flash it a lot for the first couple second, well, I can see the screen dim when I do this. And there are 2 different timings for this.
1 when you just turn the car to on (but it's not running) and
2 when the key is on and the unit is running, then you start it.

The time it takes from "12V switched" coming on to that screen is slightly different with those two scenereos. I'll see what I can come up with, but I think I might resort back to my initial software that's already out in the world. I think I have it perfect.

Thanks All!
The DucatyBoy! :)

[Navyguy]

Steve,

I just tried out your new procedure and it worked. To take a step further I left the unit playing the DVD, did the procedure again and it worked. Both times after the DVD began to play I turned on the lights and drove around the block and the DVD continued to play. Now all is left is the timing. Glad to be of some help. You know the military we aim to serve. Keep up the good work.

Navyguy
John

[ducatiboy]

I never bought the theory of what the AV source was on (meaning it had to be on something in particular for this to work). I didn't think it mattered. But good point, I forgot to mention it.

[ducatiboy]

Well, incase anyone is following this, I did some more work on this since my last post. Maybe I'm being a little too anal about this. But if these are going out in the world they have to be right.

Just turning the radio on from a "off" state (the key is out and power is off) your illumination line has to go from high to low between 5 seconds and 7 seconds after turning on the power.

I believe that when it's already booting up, but you turn the key to start the car (I usually turn the key to on, give it 2 seconds and then turn to start to prime the fuel etc, it's probably not necessary) I think it takes a bit longer to boot up so you want it to "go low" a little longer.

If anyone was curious, I just happened to put my circuit to drop the voltage 6.75 seconds after it boots up, which seems to be 0.25 seconds of a buffer if you just turn the car on (and don't start it) but probably right in the middle if you interrupt the booting of the Z1 to start the car and it reboots. This was picked due to more of a trial and error to see what worked for me, but I think I'll try to nail down this timing to the milisecond and pick numbers that are right in the middle. There seems to be a second + or - so it should be good. If anyone happens to have trouble with the circuits that are already out there, I will replace them if you think it's not nailing the timing perfectly, I'll try to make the next batch more in the middle. But I was using one like I shipped out already and it was "dead-nuts-on" for me. But as they say, your milage may vary. :)


Now I could design the circuit to try to make the ILL line go from high to low at a good time, just once so it will not be noticable on the screen, but with only one "drop" I will have to get the timing perfect. I could also togle it high and low 4 times a second for 2 seconds and that will hit it every time, it just has to notice the lights were on and now are off, it doesn't matter if the lights were on for 1/4 of a second. But you will see the screen flicker while this happens. It's going to be a trade off, I don't want to make this circuit "anoying" but I want to make sure it works 100%. Maybe I'll show a couple friends the flickering one and see if they notice or think it's a problem.

[joeynym]

this really isnt a good method for people who have Hid's, plus it will be a pain in the ass.

*edit* well if you can put parking lights on it wont be a problem, but in my case I have automatic headlights in a Avalanche & @ nite i would flickewring my hids, no good.

[ducatiboy]

[quote name="joeynym"]this really isnt a good method for people who have Hid's, plus it will be a pain in the ass.

*edit* well if you can put parking lights on it wont be a problem, but in my case I have automatic headlights in a Avalanche & @ nite i would flickewring my hids, no good.[/quote]

No it's never a good idea to flash HID's. But some people out there were saying that you should flash your headlights 3 times and that flashing them only one time wouldn't work. I didn't think it was necessary to flash your lights 3 times so I set out to methodically prove EXACTLY what is needed as flashing your headlights goes.... and it's listed above.

As for being a pain in the ass, some people out there had beleived that you needed to wait to turn your head lights on, then flash them three times. Since it doesn't matter when you turn your lights (head lights or parking) on, it matters when you turn them off. I personally think that it's much less a pain in the ass to get the timing right to just turn off the lights (which is all you need) than coordinating the turning on and off once, and way less of a pain in the ass to flash your lights 3 time while it's booting up.

And yes you can use your parking lights, not your headlights, but when I said "lights on" that's kind of what I meant, it will work with either parking or head lights. All you need is to make that ILLUMINATION line change and if your car can do it with parking lights only (which I beleive most cars do) then by all means, use that.

As for automatic headlights and HID's and not wanting to flash them, I also have all of the above in my Lincoln Aviator. I tried flashing my headlights a couple time to make sure the procedure worked and then I designed this circuit:
[url=http://www.avic411.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=166&start=0]http://www.avic411.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 66&start=0[/url]
So I wouldn't have to flash my headlights anymore. Now my circuit "does it for me".

My point to this exercise in determining what is necessary was:
1. to make my circuit, which seems to be growning in popularity, much more robust and to ensure that it's working as best as it can
2. if people choose to buy TR7's and program them they know exactly what is required so they can program them accordingly


But I would like to hear from other people who are already manually flashing their lights, to try this procedure and verify my findings.

[Guest Guest]

I think it may be different for different kind of cars or wiring of the car, in my case, the parking brake is grounded (I think that is the old trick for older Pioneer Navigation, since the installer did that), my parking brake is set, I start the car, turn the headlight (actually parking light works just the same) on as soon as I see the "Starting up Pioneer..." text. Then it does not matter I turn off the light or not, or how fast or slow I turn off the light, it always works. I think flashing the light 3 times will hit this "Starting up Pioneer" sequence most of the time, but you don't really need to...

In all fairness to the person creating the flashing kit, he's doing a great job for you guys that don't want to do the light trick, the problem is his only option is with raw timing since it's almost impossible to know the booting sequence or the state of Windows Mobile for the NAV when it is starting up.

I think people should jsut try to work with him or deal with whatever their own situation is.....

[ducatiboy]

[quote name="Guest"]I think it may be different for different kind of cars or wiring of the car, in my case, the parking brake is grounded (I think that is the old trick for older Pioneer Navigation, since the installer did that), my parking brake is set, I start the car, turn the headlight (actually parking light works just the same) on as soon as I see the "Starting up Pioneer..." text. Then it does not matter I turn off the light or not, or how fast or slow I turn off the light, it always works. I think flashing the light 3 times will hit this "Starting up Pioneer" sequence most of the time, but you don't really need to...

In all fairness to the person creating the flashing kit, he's doing a great job for you guys that don't want to do the light trick, the problem is his only option is with raw timing since it's almost impossible to know the booting sequence or the state of Windows Mobile for the NAV when it is starting up.

I think people should jsut try to work with him or deal with whatever their own situation is.....[/quote]

The only thing different for different cars would be how well the headlight trick works. I would go on the assumption that all Pioneer Avic-Z1's have left the factory the same. True different cars will have different hookups, but that won't effect my circuit on the head unit, only the interaction with the car and my circuit.

And the parking brake trick does not work for this unit and can cause interferance with the headlight trick if you ground that wire.

And if I get this right you are saying you just need to turn on the headlights and leave them on. I thought I nailed it down the other way, but I will check it.

As for your "raw timing" theory. The head unit is checking for headlight "flashing" pretty much before it does anything else. And there is a 2.5 second window where it will work. Do you really thing that head unit to head unit (and which car you put it in can't matter at all) but you think the head units will be that different where they will boot up to that "starting pioneer navigation" screen at that much different times? Now granted I only have the one Z1 to try this on, but I can't really belive that there is that much different from unit to unit. I could see if the timing was based off the unit booting up and showing you the vehicle dynamics screen, not all people would boot to that or some people might switch to it at different times, but the timing is coming into play when the unit boots up till when it hits that "starting pioneer navigation screen" and you have a 2.5 second window to do what ever you need to do. I would bet my head unit that all head units will get to that point +/- 0.5 seconds. So I programed my circuit such.

But there is no different between units based off which car they are installed in (at least as far as my flasher is concerned). It might be if you are trying to manually flash your lights, but that's why I created this circuit.

But I will try the "just turn the headlight on trick".

[ducatiboy]

"Guest" is right, you can leave your headlights off, start the car and when you get to the "starting pioneer navigation" screen you can just turn your headlights on and leave them on and that will work too.

I guess it's a state change no matter what the state is.

I still disagree with his theory that each head unit will operate "differently" in the first 10 seconds of boot up depending on what car it is in. I have version 1.000000. When they come up with a new version, if they don't kill this whole flash the lights thing, then the timing might change, but right now all 1.00000's should operate the same (at least for the first 10 seconds).

[jakeoooh]

I'm getting ready to purchase a z1, now that there appears to be a reliable hack for it, but I think i might be getting bogged down in this latest thread... If I read this correctly, this whole discussion of flashing your lights once, twice, three times is applicable only if you have not purchased one of the flasher hacks from mr. ducati?

that is to say, if you have installed one of the hacks, you don't have to concern yourself with flashing the lights or any of the other stuff that this latest thread is talking about- the board simulates the flashing for you, and you're ready to roll as soon as you start the car...

[05Stang-GT]

[quote name="jakeoooh"]I'm getting ready to purchase a z1, now that there appears to be a reliable hack for it, but I think i might be getting bogged down in this latest thread... If I read this correctly, this whole discussion of flashing your lights once, twice, three times is applicable only if you have not purchased one of the flasher hacks from mr. ducati?

that is to say, if you have installed one of the hacks, you don't have to concern yourself with flashing the lights or any of the other stuff that this latest thread is talking about- the board simulates the flashing for you, and you're ready to roll as soon as you start the car...[/quote]

You got it....

[joeynym]

[quote name="ducatiboy"]
As for automatic headlights and HID's and not wanting to flash them, I also have all of the above in my Lincoln Aviator. I tried flashing my headlights a couple time to make sure the procedure worked and then I designed this circuit:
[url=http://www.avic411.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=166&start=0]http://www.avic411.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 66&start=0[/url]
So I wouldn't have to flash my headlights anymore. Now my circuit "does it for me".
[/quote]


oh, my bad, i thought this procedure was for people who have your automatic flasher... sorry

i will be getting your flasher as soon as i order the z1.

thanks for the detailed info.

[edrock200]

A quick note and a question...

For users of the TR7, FYI the programming seems to be off by a second, ie if you time the device for 5 seconds it pulses at second 6, keep this in mind when programming. I still find that programming the unit for 5 seconds (6 in reality) works fine.

Ducatiboy: Why should it matter how long you leave the car in accessory before cranking the engine? Once cranking the engine the accessory line should cut off until the engine starts thus resetting your circuit and starting the timer over, right?

[ducatiboy]

[quote name="edrock200"]A quick note and a question...

For users of the TR7, FYI the programming seems to be off by a second, ie if you time the device for 5 seconds it pulses at second 6, keep this in mind when programming. I still find that programming the unit for 5 seconds (6 in reality) works fine.

Ducatiboy: Why should it matter how long you leave the car in accessory before cranking the engine? Once cranking the engine the accessory line should cut off until the engine starts thus resetting your circuit and starting the timer over, right?[/quote]

That makes more sense to me. With 3 seconds you are really doing it at 4 seconds and with a 1 second pulse that's going to drop the line from that pulse around 5-5.5 seconds after you boot up. That's a little early in my testing.

By setting it to 5 seconds, and it really switches around 6, that's the sweet spot. You need to hit it 5-7 seconds after it boots up and 6 is right there.

Why should it matter how long you leave your car in ACC before cranking the engine? Well, the 12V switched line will turn off and back on when you crank the engine, and this is what powers my circuit and the TR7. But the Z1 is not powered off this line, it's powered off the 12V all the time line and the switched is just a signal line telling it when to turn on and off. And the Z1 is basically a comptuer, when it's running and it sees the 12v go away on the sense line, I believe that it goes thought a very small shut down procedure to make sure the hard drive and software shuts down properly. But after it's shut down, you are done cranking the engine and it sees 12V back again and boots back up.

If you turn your car on and right away crank the engine, the Z1 doesn't have time to boot up at all, so it's like it's booting up right from the start. But if you turn to "on" and let it sit there for 10 seconds, I believe the z1 starts to boot up, when you crank the engine, the power goes away and the Z1 does not turn off instantly, but goes though a shut down procedure. Then when it's done shutting down, you will be done cranking the engine and 12V will have been restored about a second earlier. And then it boots back up. It's not long, maybe a second or so. But there is a noticable time different between turning the Z1 on and then off and back on real quick.

[Guest]

Hmm, well I will be installing your flasher tomorrow (I need the TR7's for another project) and I'll report on the results. I almost always remote start my vehicle and as you probably no directed's remote start systems turn accessory on for about 2 seconds and then crank. It will be interesting to see how the timing plays out. On a side note I didn't have an issue with the TR7 and remote start so I doubt your circuit will have any trouble either.