what's underneath the hood so far

[unrequited]

Here's an info thread that might help other people out by knowing what to look for. By going through the filesystem in "test mode" (using the testmode folder from the latest update), I've found 3rd-party software that Pioneer is using in order to put together the AVIC. Some and maybe even most of the problems that we're facing on the AVIC might not be Pioneer-related at all... Here's a list of what I've found so far:

 

Navigation Software:

I-go

http://www.i-go.com/en/

 

and/or Mitac Mio:

http://www.mio.com/

 

TTS Software:

RealSpeakSolo

http://www.nuance.com/realspeak/solo/

[GnatGoSplat]

Looking at the files in the firmware update, it looks like these run WinCE .NET 4.20 and an ARM processor.

Some of the executables actually run on my Windows Mobile 6 phone. Unfortunately, none of the UI apps run, but there are a few utilities that do like the VoiceBox engine and diagnostic app TEKTool.exe.

The iGO (actually iGO8) software won't run on my phone, it crashes with a fatal error.

I'm not surprised at all the problems the F-series is having though, considering they're trying to integrate several 3rd party apps together.

 

The actual OS is in WINCEIMG.BIN, it uses the same uboot format as Mio branded devices. Looking at the hex of the file, it looks like inside this image are two files, TOBEeboot.nb which is most likely the bootloader, and ISFCWINCE42.NB0 which contains the OS. Dumping the contents of the nb files should be no problem as there are many utilities for that. I haven't found anything that can extract them from the .BIN file though.

[skicrave]

I can't believe a company the size of Pioneer chose to piece something together like this on a project with as big of a scope as the F-Series.

 

That it isn't running a custom embedded OS blows my mind. If they had done it right, they would have a scaleable platform that could be used in all of their multimedia/navigation systems for the next 5 years. The ROI on that would definitely pencil out.

[unrequited]

In the \Windows directory there's a bunch more files I have to peek at again but I remember seeing something called "IpodJudge" couldn't find any info on that.

 

Good info GnatGoSplat, I'm coming from GPS hacking myself on the Navigon systems, and only started getting into shell replacements, feature hack-ins, etc. Hopefully we'll be able to achieve something along the lines of that. gpspassion.com is a great resource for general CE stuff, and I think one of the first things I'm going to try is a TTS replacement.

[GnatGoSplat]

I can't believe a company the size of Pioneer chose to piece something together like this on a project with as big of a scope as the F-Series.

 

That it isn't running a custom embedded OS blows my mind. If they had done it right, they would have a scaleable platform that could be used in all of their multimedia/navigation systems for the next 5 years. The ROI on that would definitely pencil out.

 

The D-series, N-series, and 80/88/9/90DVD add-on units do run a custom embedded OS using an unusual CPU, the NEC V800-series.

I guess some things were just too difficult for Pioneer's in-house programmers to tackle. The units with a greater feature set tend to run CE. The Z-series was the first from Pioneer running WinCE 4.2 and the F-series is the second. Unfortunately, the Z-series uses the Hitachi SH4 CPU while the F-series uses ARM so it's not possible to play with files from one on the other. WinCE seems to be the OS of choice for navigation as many factory navigation stereos, JVC, and even low-cost brands like Jensen and Valor are running CE for navi.

[skicrave]

I guess some things were just too difficult for Pioneer's in-house programmers to tackle.

That's my whole point. If their in-house team can't handle an embedded OS that will do everything they're marketing it for, then they should have found someone that can. Yes it would be more expensive, but done right they would have a custom OS (like Alpine or Kenwood) that will scale for the future and just works.

 

As it is, going the CE route has surely cost them a lot more over the long run on the F-Series than an embedded OS.

[GnatGoSplat]

As it is, going the CE route has surely cost them a lot more over the long run on the F-Series than an embedded OS.

 

I don't think CE in itself is so bad, and I think Alpine and Kenwood do use CE on some models (or so a Google search seems to imply) - as do Denso, Clarion, and Panasonic.

 

The Z-series has relatively few bugs and almost never crashes despite running the exact same OS as the F-series. The only things people seem to dislike about the Z-series it is that Pioneer never updated it to support newer IP-Bus devices natively or faster iPod control. The difference though, is the Z-series has a completely custom shell, libraries, etc. Even the basic DLLs required to run 3rd party CE apps are missing because they're not needed to run the Pioneer software. The F-series on the other hand, it looks like Pioneer took another approach. They took a bunch of 3rd party CE apps from other companies, and made them talk to each other on top of a nearly complete CE core.

 

My work is going through something similar - replacing an in-house system with a collage of different 3rd party apps and making them talk to each other. It's still too early to tell, but initial impression is we've gone 2-steps backwards in automation, ease of use, and stability. Kind of like the F-series!

[Rob916]

I made mention of tinkering with the OS on pioneer-mel.com (dealer site) and they deleted my post. lol After the firmware fix I too played around with the OS a bit. I did notice it may be possible to tether your bluetooth phone to the F900 with bluetooth DUN and surf the net on your unit. The USB port has me wondering as well. I have an F900 on a test bench at the shop, my next step is to boot into test mode and plug in a USB mouse and see if it responds. Perhaps a keyboard as well. This unit could turn out to be great for modifying.

[jdmeyes]

I'm looking at the firmware update zip file, and I noticed a bunch of BMP's for the VR gui. I'm wondering if we could replace those with our own and install that...

[GnatGoSplat]

Some more fun stuff... I managed to dump the WINCEIMG.BIN file. I've attached a file list of everything in it for those who may be interested. I haven't bothered to upload the dump anywhere because there's no point right now if there's no known way to package them back into a flashable bin file.

 

Anyway, I found it interesting that unlike the Z-series which has the OS pared down to only the very essential files, the F-series has what appears to be an almost complete Windows CE OS. There are libraries for wireless networking, all the CE GUI libraries, Windows control panel app, Windows Explorer (explorer.exe), and even wceload.exe which lets you install cab files! If it were possible to somehow get it to run that explorer.exe instead of the default shell (which I believe is nEventWatcher.exe), you could DEFINITELY run 3rd party apps on it.

filelist.txt

[skicrave]

I'm not interested so much in running 3rd party apps as I am in speeding up what Pioneer gave us.

 

I wonder how much of a performance improvement would be realized if all of the non-essential components were removed?

[GnatGoSplat]

I think most of that stuff will only be loaded when it's needed so I don't think there's much of a way to speed up performance other than maybe overclocking the processor.

 

Seeing as how the F-series uses a lot of 3rd party apps, most of those libraries probably need to be there.

[CatchMeIfYouCan631]

I think most of that stuff will only be loaded when it's needed so I don't think there's much of a way to speed up performance other than maybe overclocking the processor.

 

Seeing as how the F-series uses a lot of 3rd party apps, most of those libraries probably need to be there.

 

so in other words, theres not much that can be done about the slow start-up time?

[GnatGoSplat]

I think most of that stuff will only be loaded when it's needed so I don't think there's much of a way to speed up performance other than maybe overclocking the processor.

 

Seeing as how the F-series uses a lot of 3rd party apps, most of those libraries probably need to be there.

 

so in other words, theres not much that can be done about the slow start-up time?

 

Correct. Removing unnecessary stuff will free space in the flash memory, but I don't think that will buy you anything.

 

If you could run 3rd party apps, you could run an overclocking program to overclock the CPU, but it's possible you could have overheating problems. Theoretically, it could also be upgraded to WinCE 5.0 or even 6.0, but I don't know if that would improve performance. Usually the newer the OS, the worse the performance which could be why Pioneer stuck with the old version 4.2.

[CatchMeIfYouCan631]

wel since that cant be fixed try something else...like putting super mario bros. on it!! now that would be awesome lol