Pioneer AVIC-Z1: Early Thoughts / Review

[landrvr1]

Posted this at the FJ Cruiser forums and thought I'd share here as well.

I've had the Z1 less than 24 hours, and already I've got a pile of stuff to ***** about. I know all this has been covered, but venting makes me feel better.

Picked the unit up along with the Sirius and iPod adaptor.

Let's start with the good. It's a lot of fun, the inboard hard drive means you don't have to keep those map DVDs loaded, it's got every feature you could want, the GPS and nav features are excellent (though not without quirks, of course), the overall sound is excellent (especially compared to the FJammer - barf), voice recognition is great, and watching DVDs while waiting in the parking lot for my wife to get back is just what the doctor ordered.

Now, for the stuff that isn't so hot - and some items that just downright piss me off:

[b]SECURITY[/b]
None. Nada. There isn't even a cover plate that comes with it, or offered by a 3rd party vendor.

[b]SIRIUS[/b]
Ugg. Horrible interface. Before I continue let's just get something clear right from the get-go: Pioneer has a contractual relationship with XM, and that is why the XM interface is so much better. It has nothing to do with Sirius, or the adaptor itself. XM simply warrants better treatment; no doubt demanding as much from Pioneer. So what's the problem? There are many:

The graphics just suck. There's no combination Artist and Song Title that scrolls across the screen. You can have one, but not both. Song, Artist, station number, and station name are all displayed in one little text area. You have to press an onscreen DISP button to switch between the text info. Blah. That's horrible. There's a big ole' SIRIUS graphic that is always on, and that's probably where they had planned to display all the info correctly prior to XM signing the deal, haha.

No signal strength indicator. C'mon. Even the tiniest piece of S%^T Sirius radio has signal strength and better song, artist, and station display info.

I'm wrong on any of this info, please let me know. I'd love to be proven otherwise, believe me....

[b]iPod[/b]
A travesty. It's criminal, really, how sucky the iPod integration is with Pioneer. My God. There are only 2 problems, really, but boy are they doozies.

Problem #1: Selecting your music. You hit a search button, and then choose by artist, song, etc. No matter what you choose, you'd better pull off to the side of the road because it's going to take you a long time to get to the 'N' artist list. I'm not kidding here. It took me 5 minutes to get to Neko Case. Horrible. I mean, honestly. This would be such an easy fix: At the top of the screen, give me an alphabet chart to select the first letter of the artist. Can they make it faster? Not sure. I'm not certain where the problem lies. It's probably the equivalent of a USB 2.0 connection, so maybe it's a software thing? If it's a slow connection, therein lies the problem. Regardless, an alpha selector at the top is the way to go. iPod music is my life, and right now the unit is just worthless in my truck.

The only solution, for now, is to definitely stick with playlists. Short playlists of your favorites.

Problem #2
Let's say you finally get to that artist and tune you wanted, and away you go. You're listening to Shock the Monkey from Gabriel's Security album, and want to go one menu back to an album song listing. Forget it.

You need to go through the entire artist search again. If I'm missing something here - if someone knows a way to always go one menu depth back, lemme know.

Voice recognition may have solved this crap, but it doesn't work with the iPods.

Those two problems alone make iPod adaption a joke with the Pioneer units.


[b]GPS[/b]
Here's where the unit really shines, but I've got some gripes:

Right out of the box, the accuracy is off. That's normal, they say, until the unit gets smarter. It needs to apparently know - over a period of time - your driving habits, where you are, how fast you go, blah blah blah. All I know is that my $400 handheld Garmin V unit is dead on accurate. I'm going to give this thing 2 weeks, and if my location is still 100ft off, I'm taking the whole thing back. Remember, accuracy counts.

What's that river over there? Is that Lake Geneva? I wonder what railroad line this is? You'll forever be asking those questions with this unit. This is nearly a deal breaker for me, believe it or not. I'm a bit of a railfan, and like to know who's tracks I'm crossing. When you move the cursor over tracks, rivers, lakes, etc only the closest road info is displayed. That's crap. Again, my 2 year old Garmin has better info.

Satellite strength should be accessible by one onscreen button. You shouldn't have to go 3 or 4 menus deep in order to check.

No latitude/longitude info. Maybe it's buried deep in some menu nest, but I can't find it.

[b]Mute[/b]
There's no mute button on the Z1. C'mon. Jeesh. You can mute by selecting SOURCE and then OFF, but how about just a mute. $2500 and no mute button? Zzzzzz.

[b]Manual[/b]
The manual is just junk. Man oh man. Pioneer, I've got one suggestion for you. I'm going to type this slowly so you can follow along with me:

Alphabetical index at the back of manuals is a good thing. Not having one is a bad thing. Having to search endlessly for any particular topic is a pain in my backside.


Well, there you have it. Plenty of *****in on my part. Is it worth the money? The jury is out. If I'm wrong on any of this stuff, please let me know. I'll sleep better. :)

[wkderf]

this guy has some legit gripes about the Z1, all of which are established shortcomings.

but from the sounds of it, he seems like a consumer that is NEVER happy with anything he buys.

he will always find a fault with anything, and that fault is a catastrophic one which makes the unit totally useless and a complete P.O.S. I mean come on, can you blame pioneer for not catering to "railfans" i would guess 98.9% of people out there dont care about whos rail they are crossing as they drive. they care about getting to their destination.

I encounter guys like this in the shop I work at all the time, and all they really need is someone to tell them(slowly, so they can understand) that there will NEVER be the perfect piece of gear.

[sportsfan21]

[quote]SECURITY
None. Nada. There isn't even a cover plate that comes with it, or offered by a 3rd party vendor. [/quote]

I agree with you there, but in reality, if they offered a blank cover plate, do you really think that would stop a thief? Half the time you probably wouldn't put the cover on. And when you do put the cover on, if the thieves see a blank piece of plastic where the radio should be, they'll obviously know something is there that you are trying to hide.

[quote]SIRIUS
Ugg. Horrible interface. Before I continue let's just get something clear right from the get-go: Pioneer has a contractual relationship with XM, and that is why the XM interface is so much better. It has nothing to do with Sirius, or the adaptor itself. XM simply warrants better treatment; no doubt demanding as much from Pioneer. So what's the problem? There are many:

The graphics just suck. There's no combination Artist and Song Title that scrolls across the screen. You can have one, but not both. Song, Artist, station number, and station name are all displayed in one little text area. You have to press an onscreen DISP button to switch between the text info. Blah. That's horrible. There's a big ole' SIRIUS graphic that is always on, and that's probably where they had planned to display all the info correctly prior to XM signing the deal, haha.

No signal strength indicator. C'mon. Even the tiniest piece of S%^T Sirius radio has signal strength and better song, artist, and station display info. [/quote]

Can you blame Pioneer? XM gave them money to make their headunits have a better interface, and Sirius didn't. Its a simple business concept and one which you can't fault Pioneer for following.

[quote]iPod
A travesty. It's criminal, really, how sucky the iPod integration is with Pioneer. My God. There are only 2 problems, really, but boy are they doozies.

Problem #1: Selecting your music. You hit a search button, and then choose by artist, song, etc. No matter what you choose, you'd better pull off to the side of the road because it's going to take you a long time to get to the 'N' artist list. I'm not kidding here. It took me 5 minutes to get to Neko Case. Horrible. I mean, honestly. This would be such an easy fix: At the top of the screen, give me an alphabet chart to select the first letter of the artist. Can they make it faster? Not sure. I'm not certain where the problem lies. It's probably the equivalent of a USB 2.0 connection, so maybe it's a software thing? If it's a slow connection, therein lies the problem. Regardless, an alpha selector at the top is the way to go. iPod music is my life, and right now the unit is just worthless in my truck.

The only solution, for now, is to definitely stick with playlists. Short playlists of your favorites.

Problem #2
Let's say you finally get to that artist and tune you wanted, and away you go. You're listening to Shock the Monkey from Gabriel's Security album, and want to go one menu back to an album song listing. Forget it.

You need to go through the entire artist search again. If I'm missing something here - if someone knows a way to always go one menu depth back, lemme know.

Voice recognition may have solved this crap, but it doesn't work with the iPods.

Those two problems alone make iPod adaption a joke with the Pioneer units. [/quote]

I agree with you there. I have the D2 and the interface is 10x worse. However if you want to get a better interface look into the iPod2Car discussed [url=http://www.avic411.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1472]here[/url]. You can also get a auxillary input on eBay that will allow you to control the iPod through the iPod menu.

[quote]GPS
Here's where the unit really shines, but I've got some gripes:

Right out of the box, the accuracy is off. That's normal, they say, until the unit gets smarter. It needs to apparently know - over a period of time - your driving habits, where you are, how fast you go, blah blah blah. All I know is that my $400 handheld Garmin V unit is dead on accurate. I'm going to give this thing 2 weeks, and if my location is still 100ft off, I'm taking the whole thing back. Remember, accuracy counts.

What's that river over there? Is that Lake Geneva? I wonder what railroad line this is? You'll forever be asking those questions with this unit. This is nearly a deal breaker for me, believe it or not. I'm a bit of a railfan, and like to know who's tracks I'm crossing. When you move the cursor over tracks, rivers, lakes, etc only the closest road info is displayed. That's crap. Again, my 2 year old Garmin has better info.

Satellite strength should be accessible by one onscreen button. You shouldn't have to go 3 or 4 menus deep in order to check.

No latitude/longitude info. Maybe it's buried deep in some menu nest, but I can't find it. [/quote]

I agree with the above responder. How many people will really care whether or not they have the name of the tracks? I would much rather that they spend time working on the maps and the POIs than the names of lakes or RR tracks.

[quote]Mute
There's no mute button on the Z1. C'mon. Jeesh. You can mute by selecting SOURCE and then OFF, but how about just a mute. $2500 and no mute button? Zzzzzz. [/quote]

Thats true, they really should've added one, however most Pioneer remotes have a mute or 'att' button and they will work with the Z1. You can probably pick up a remote for $25 on eBay that will do the job.

[quote]Manual
The manual is just junk. Man oh man. Pioneer, I've got one suggestion for you. I'm going to type this slowly so you can follow along with me:

Alphabetical index at the back of manuals is a good thing. Not having one is a bad thing. Having to search endlessly for any particular topic is a pain in my backside.
[/quote]

The manual does suck. Theres no question about that, but thats what forums like these are for! 8)

[landrvr1]

[quote name="wkderf"]this guy has some legit gripes about the Z1, all of which are established shortcomings.

but from the sounds of it, he seems like a consumer that is NEVER happy with anything he buys.

he will always find a fault with anything, and that fault is a catastrophic one which makes the unit totally useless and a complete P.O.S. I mean come on, can you blame pioneer for not catering to "railfans" i would guess 98.9% of people out there dont care about whos rail they are crossing as they drive. they care about getting to their destination.

I encounter guys like this in the shop I work at all the time, and all they really need is someone to tell them(slowly, so they can understand) that there will NEVER be the perfect piece of gear.[/quote]

LOL, well well well. What can I say to that? I'd better say something positive about the Z1 now. Hmm. Hmm. Oh, I know: The AM radio works great! Woohoo!

[wkderf]

to help you out a bit:

if you are desperate for a mute button, go to radio shack & pick up a push on/ push off button. wire that button to the mute wire found on the back of your Z1. now you have a mute button that will mute the audio that you can mount anywhere you want.

also, you are aware that in the settings on the nav side there is a button which says: modify current location. you can use this button to tell the Z1 exactly where you are, so it can be more accurate. all of this info is in the manual, but i guess its hard to find without an alphabetical index.

now last of all i would like to ask you where you purchased your Z1 and who installed it for you. the problems you are complaining about is nothing new, and any salesman would be able to explain to you the attributes of the Z1 and how well it interfaces with the ipod, sirius, etc. it sounds as if you purchased your unit online. is that correct? just curious.

[landrvr1]

[quote name="wkderf"]to help you out a bit:

if you are desperate for a mute button, go to radio shack & pick up a push on/ push off button. wire that button to the mute wire found on the back of your Z1. now you have a mute button that will mute the audio that you can mount anywhere you want.

also, you are aware that in the settings on the nav side there is a button which says: modify current location. you can use this button to tell the Z1 exactly where you are, so it can be more accurate. all of this info is in the manual, but i guess its hard to find without an alphabetical index.

now last of all i would like to ask you where you purchased your Z1 and who installed it for you. the problems you are complaining about is nothing new, and any salesman would be able to explain to you the attributes of the Z1 and how well it interfaces with the ipod, sirius, etc. it sounds as if you purchased your unit online. is that correct? just curious.[/quote]

The alphabetical index jab was funny, I'll give you that. Never knew that Pioneer reps had such a good sense of humor.

Your angry, smart a$$ responses aren't helpful in the least, and put you squarely in the catagory of those guys who need to justify their purchase. Justify to your heart's content. Convince yourself that my gripes are minor, and must be due to the fact that I'm one of those customer's that's never happy. Whatever makes you feel good. All that still doesn't change the fact that the unit has some serious damned shortcomings.

I bought the unit at a big box. I did the research, knew there were some issues with Sirius and iPod functionality, but none of the posts and reviews really described accurately just how bad the functionality is for those two items.

GPS modify current location. I love that. Oh. Here's another bit of bitching for you, since you seem so receptive: It's astounding that a unit at this cost doesn't incorporate WAAS. Again, even the cheapest of handheld units now use it. Say, where IS my Garmin V anyway?

Just curious about something as well. Does the manual say anything about 'iPod functionality sucks and is hopelessly pathetic'? Let's face it, without that alpha index, I'm simply lost.

[DJ Machismo]

Everyone seemed to just give their opinions. Their is no need to be a jackass just because you disagree with them.

For my tastes, I have found a few things that I agree with you on, however they are far from dealbreakers for me. If they bug you that much, than return the unit and stick with your Garmin V.

-Litos

[03Aviator]

If you use the SWI-PS for steering wheel controls, you can "add" a mute button. The PAC unit and the Z1 support mute. I switched the "media" button on my steering wheel to mute. Works perfectly.

[wkderf]

[quote name="landrvr1"]The alphabetical index jab was funny, I'll give you that. Never knew that Pioneer reps had such a good sense of humor.

Your angry, smart a$$ responses aren't helpful in the least, and put you squarely in the catagory of those guys who need to justify their purchase. Justify to your heart's content. Convince yourself that my gripes are minor, and must be due to the fact that I'm one of those customer's that's never happy. Whatever makes you feel good. All that still doesn't change the fact that the unit has some serious damned shortcomings.

I bought the unit at a big box. I did the research, knew there were some issues with Sirius and iPod functionality, but none of the posts and reviews really described accurately just how bad the functionality is for those two items.

GPS modify current location. I love that. Oh. Here's another bit of bitching for you, since you seem so receptive: It's astounding that a unit at this cost doesn't incorporate WAAS. Again, even the cheapest of handheld units now use it. Say, where IS my Garmin V anyway?

Just curious about something as well. Does the manual say anything about 'iPod functionality sucks and is hopelessly pathetic'? Let's face it, without that alpha index, I'm simply lost.[/quote]


WAAS isnt found on any DVD based nav system that i know of. the reason for this is that most of the dvd units utilize both a gyro and the VSS wire to help with accuracy. does your garmon have a gyro? i think not. the gyro is the one thing aside from the VSS that can actualy help you continue navigating if you lose your GPS signal. all the WAAS does is send out a correction signal which will only help out when you are recueving a GPS signal. no signal = no help.

The ipod. the real problem lies within the connections between the ipod and the Z1. the ipod is digital, and the Z1 is digital. the problem however, is that the ip-bus cable system is analog. so what happens is when you want info from the ipod, the signal has to convert from digital, to analog, and then back to digital. the only solution has come from alpine. they have what is referred to as a "full speed" ipod connection. what alpine had to do was build the interface DIRECTLY into the radio (ie: cda-9857, IVA-W200, IVA-D100, etc) thats why the ipod cable for the newer alpine units is so cheap ($30) its simply a cable that goes straight from the ipod to the radio (no box, power cable, or data cable to speak of) Im sure pioneer is working on their own version of this and we can only hope it arrives sometime soon (I actually DONT work for pioneer, I just work at a retail shop that sells their product, along with dozens of other brands)

so if you NEED a better ipod connection, better sirius, better GPS (even though i think pioneer is better IMO) then you should look at alpine.

here are the part numbers & approx. pricing for you:

IVA-W200 6.5 inch touchscreen reciever ($999)
KCE-422i full speed ipod cable ($30)
SIR-ALP1 sirius tuner ($99)
NVE-N872A dvd navigation ($1,699)

now i dont know what you paid for your Z1 and all of its accessories, but for the above setupo from alpine, your total comes to $2,827.00 before installation. and because the nav system is separate, expect to pay more for install than you did for the Z1.

just a few notes on the alpine stuff though:

1: 6.5 inch screen, not 7.
2: no graphics for sat radio - either from xm or sirius.
3: No WAAS, and no ability to modify current location.
4: no 3D nav view, overhead map only.
5: three separate instruction manuals, one for the reciever, one for the nav drive, and one for the nav software.
6: bluetooth interface requires separate answer & end button be installed, and has no caller id, phone book, or screen dialing. simply a speakerphone.


I know there are some other shortcomings, but i cant think of them at the moment.

just some food for thought.

[ducatiboy]

Good info on the alpine unit thanks. I think that a lot of people here hold the alpine systems up high either with good reason or just cause they are alpine.

I didn't like the fact that those were 2 seperate units (screen and nav). I liked the pioneer all in one.

I also think that the Pioneer Z1 is one of the best all in one units out there. Sure there are some flaws and some areas where they fall short of expectations. But I think our expectations are very high. We all want everything and we want it right now. I don't know if everyone here knows how much design work and how complex these units are. I'm sure they are working on adding every functionality for everything. They don't want to make a crappy product, but they are hindered by design time, shipping date goals, and lawyers (CYA kind of thing).

I feel we are just starting to see the beginning of the new super functional car all-in-on computer. I'm sure the Z2 will be even better. We might not ever get all the functions we want fixed taken care of with the Z1. I'm still happy with mine. I think it's one of the better units out there (with all it's flaws).



I have a little argument with wkderf's theory of the IP bus system being analog.... huh? Do you really think that it's just analog? Really?

The "slowness" of the ipod is not getting audio out of the ipod, it's getting text and updating the screen on the Z1. Once the audio playback from the ipod is started, it's just playing on the ipod and the Z1 is taking it as an aux input. I don't know this for a fact, but I would assume that some of those wires on the ip bus are just RCA jack aux input type wires. There isn't a slow down from the ipod. And the ipod doesn't output the audio as digital data to be converted, the ipod doc connector has aux out and I'm sure that's what the ipod interface is using, that aux out on the ipod doc connector to pass into the Z1's ip bus aux interface.

But the interface is slow with text and character updates. This data is not being converted at all to analog. How to you make "Three Doors Down" into an analog signal. I guess it's possible, but you don't think they actually do that do you?

That data is requested digitally from the z1 and it's returned digitally from the ipod. It's never transformed into analog. My guess is that pioneer either has a data limitation on their ip bus digital system, or they are being "sloppy" on there communication with the ipod. Or both. You can request data from the ipod, but maybe insted of a batch of data returned, they are getting the song titles for the screen one at a time, and maybe there needs to be an answer from the Z1, to the ipod adapter and then to the ipod before requesting the next song title or something. I'm not sure how they do it.

If the "slowness" is a limitation of the data speed of the ip bus technology, then they will have to update the Z1 with new hardware (which would be the Z2) before an ipod speed update is possible. If the ip bus they use has enough data transfer speed available (which I believe they do) then they need an update to the ipod adapter, they just need a "new way" to interface with the ipod to get the information out either at a faster speed or do it more efficient. My guess is that the ipod adapter #3 will be much faster than the #1 or #2 (which all they did was change the connector).

Just my take on it as an engineer with stuff like this.

[wkderf]

that is indeed possible ducatiboy. I am only basing this information off of my contact with both alpine & pioneer. Alpine created an ai-net ipod interface (CKA-420i) to connect the ipod to their radios, and its operation is very similar to the pioneer ipod interface: its slow, and searching for songs takes forever, and its not possible to go back to an album once a song is selected.

I was told the same thing from both alpine & pioneer that the limitation is the transfer rate & design of their "daisy chain" system (ai-net & ip-bus). the system was designed long before devices such as the ipod were even a thought.

alpines new ipod system does not go throught the "daisy chain" cable because of theese limitations, and that is why the new one goes straight to the head unit.


so i can only hope pioneer would follow suit.


and having had the opportunity to use the new ipod interface with the IVA-W200, i can say that it is very, very nice. you can scroll from the top of your album or song list right to the bottom simply by dragging your finger along the left side of the screen. so lets hope pioneer can engineer their own type of new "full speed" ipod interface for future radios. one thing im sure about is if and when they do, you WILL need to purchase a new radio. thats the one thing that isnt backwards compatible.

[jhoglesr]

Hey Landrvr1 Welcome to the Forum. I know were your coming from. After owning a TomTom for serveral years then purchasing a D2 I also had trouble believing how Pioneer did things , but if helps I'd like to say that after owning the D2 for 3 months I'm alot more comfortable with my purchase. Maybe you just need to give it some time. I did buy a steering wheel remote later for easier volume control.

[ducatiboy]

wkderf, if you are right that the IP bus is the limitation then you are correct, there will be no way to speed up the ipod interface on the z1's. We will be stuck with it.

I don't know if that is the limiting factor or not, it could very well be. I don't know the specs on their ip bus.

I'm still hoping they have a little more room in the ip bus technology than what they are using. This way a new ipod interface would be faster. As fast as alpine's direct connect? Maybe not.

Hope it's possible to squeze a little more speed out of that ip bus though, I would hate to need a whole new Z2 just for faster ipod. :(